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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #75 on: May 27, 2005, 10:54:21 PM »
Tom Doak,

I thought Pacific Dunes favored a draw.

Did I miss something ?

TEPaul

Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #76 on: May 28, 2005, 05:42:17 AM »
"TE
Do you remember when you wrote this?"

Tom MacWood;

No, do you?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #77 on: May 28, 2005, 10:06:09 AM »
Tom P:  Pacific Dunes may not favor a fade as much as some of our other courses, because I was very conscious that Jim Urbina hits a power fade and I was trying to balance that out in the design of some of the holes.  For example, on #8 the dogleg right, where we did not have much natural stuff to work with, my idea for the hole was to see if we could design the hole to reward a draw off the tee and the second shot, instead of a fade.  The first hole I could think of that did that was the third at Woking in England, so that's what I ran with.

The second difference between our work and Coore & Crenshaw's is, as some people have alluded to, the green complexes.  Sand Hills and some holes at Friars Head are exceptions, but generally Bill likes to build his greens with a foot or three of sand fill for the green pad, and then do the tie-ins off that.  He also sometimes locates his greens by filling at the base of a hill or the end of a little valley (Bandon Trails #4, 13 and 15, Friars Head #16, Old Sandwich #13 are some examples) ... I like these green sites and I always say to myself, why don't I ever think of something like that?

I don't think of it because we rarely ever bring fill to the green site unless the drainage is really a big problem.  Pete Dye was a big proponent of locating his greens at grade on a slight natural high spot so the drainage automatically worked around it, and I took that to heart; at High Pointe we didn't have any means of moving earth other than me on a bulldozer, so every green started from ground level.  You get a wider variety of greens in this way, I think, and it's one of the major differences between my work and most others'.  But it's possible that Bill's greens are more visible from the fairway than mine, because I'm starting on a high point and cutting down, and he's starting in a low and filling slightly up.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #78 on: May 28, 2005, 04:58:00 PM »
Tom: You said that a general characteristic of your holes versus Billl and Ben is that they favor draw and you favor a fade, and as I remember Ben favors a draw when he playing.  What I noticed at Hidden Creek was that while he favored a draw for a tee shot, it seemed the second shot seemed to have a significant obstacle or hazard to the right of the green which would in some instances favor a fade.  My question is this, do you consider what the ideal tee shot was and then consider whether the second shot should be of the same type, such as a draw tee shot and second shot, or do you consider the tee shot and then set the green where it works best and not consider what type of shot will be best played toward the green?  

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #79 on: May 28, 2005, 06:36:41 PM »
Jerry:  Absolutely, we consider the tee shots in relation to the approaches ... as we also consider the general tilt of the ground, the prevailing wind, the holes which come before and after, and about 500 other things.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #80 on: May 28, 2005, 08:34:55 PM »
Tom Doak,

It seems that Pacific Dunes, overwhelmingly favors a draw.

Don't most courses buffeted by strong winds ?

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #81 on: May 28, 2005, 10:07:45 PM »
Tom: I didn't mean to be simplistic about it and imply that somehow it is the only consideration, rather, I was wondering if an architect has a tendency for a particular type of tee shot, do you also see a tendency with respect to approach shots.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #82 on: May 29, 2005, 07:33:12 AM »
Sorry, Jerry.  Yes, I see the same tendencies on approach shots as much as tee shots, if not more.

Just for the heck of it, let me analyze Pacific Dunes ... I've never actually done this:

1:  Draw on tee shot, neutral on second
2:  D, F
3:  D, F
4:  F, F
5:  F
6:  F, D
7:  D, D
8:  D, D
9:  D, D or F (upper or lower green)
10:  F or D (upper or lower)
11:  D
12:  D, D
13:  D, F
14:  neutral
15:  D, F
16:  F, F
17:  either
18:  D, D, F

That is a lot more draws than I thought when we were building it, but the approach shots are about even.

TEPaul

Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #83 on: May 29, 2005, 07:40:53 AM »
TomD:

It seems that you answered me on post #78 when it was Pat Mucci who was asking the question or making the statement you answered.

However, what you said in the second and third paragraphs on post #78 is the best example of why I participate on this website. That kind of information is just great to see and have. That's some of the coolest and most informative stuff I've ever seen on Golfclubatlas.com in about the 6-7 years this site as been online. That stuff is about as educational as the non-architect participants on this website can ever expect to get, in my opinion.

TEPaul

Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #84 on: May 29, 2005, 07:54:27 AM »
TomD:

While it's interesting to see from the mind of the architect of the course, I've always thought all this strategical minutae of draws and fades etc is a bit overdone (maybe a lot overdone). The fact is very, very few players actually can hit draws and fades on call and even most who probably can do it somewhat on call really never try. On most all holes I've ever seen a straight ball (or whatever any golfer's normal shot shape is) will most always suffice and if a golfer, even a good one, doesn't generally tend to hit his shots without "shape", even the good ones can play any course fairly successfully by generally going with their normal shot shape.

This is no criticism of you at all or your post above but one of the things I don't like to see is when any architect actually explains how one of his courses should be played by everyone. The most eggregious examples are these little booklets where the architect explains in detail how all his holes are supposed to be played. I think those things are awful. Let any golfer figure out for himself how he should best play any course. Let him look at the holes carefully and try to "read" them for his own game and his own strategies. The better he can do that the more satisfied he will be in the end.

And again, if any golfer, even pretty good ones, actually go out there and read a course and hole description and see things like "this calls for a draw, and that calls for a fade", I can pretty much guarantee you he will not shoot anything remotely near his handicap or ability. Hitting draws and fades on call are better kept on the practice range. Fairways and greens are better for the golf course itself.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #85 on: May 29, 2005, 08:03:56 AM »
Tom:  I'm in agreement with you 100%.  Tom Fazio charts out the doglegs and shots on his preliminary routing plans; I just think through the golf course during construction and try to make sure we're not tilted entirely to one side.  And of course, hole locations on the green can change the general bias of the hole.

But I do want the holes to reward those who can draw or fade at will, and I want to tempt the good player to try it, even though it's probably a lower-percentage shot for him.

One of the things I learned from Pete Dye is that today's pros almost NEVER go away from their preferred shot pattern, come hell or high winds.  This is why course set-up is such a serious concern on Tour ... if a Sunday set-up favors a draw on the approach shots, everyone who likes to hit a fade is out a lot of money, and they're not too happy about it!  (I believe Colin Montgomerie is still half convinced they did it to him deliberately at Congressional.)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 08:05:00 AM by Tom_Doak »

TEPaul

Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #86 on: May 29, 2005, 08:19:20 AM »
"... if a Sunday set-up favors a draw on the approach shots, everyone who likes to hit a fade is out a lot of money, and they're not too happy about it!  (I believe Colin Montgomerie is still half convinced they did it to him deliberately at Congressional.)"

TomD:

Those are interesting facts and histories and no doubt true. It's no wonder that the likes of a Nicklaus or a Woods (as the very best examples) never took those kinds of things personally. Golfers like those two (or ironically even a Montgomerie) were so good they were rarely far out of contention going into Saturday or Sunday but the most fun to watch in my opinion is if and when golfers like that were. In those cases you see golfers like that adust their "never do something stupid to take yourself out of contention" and really begin to step on the accelerator. Obviously when they do that their chances of producing wins or high finishes decreased somewhat but that's when you also seem them produce some of those truly electrifying finishes that make watching that caliber of player so fascinating and impressive!

ForkaB

Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #87 on: May 30, 2005, 03:18:09 AM »
Tom Doak,

It seems that Pacific Dunes, overwhelmingly favors a draw.

Don't most courses buffeted by strong winds ?

Pat

Can I surmise that your "natural" shot is a draw?

As they say, to a man with a hammer everything looks like a nail......... ;)

ForkaB

Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #88 on: May 30, 2005, 03:30:28 AM »
One of the things I learned from Pete Dye is that today's pros almost NEVER go away from their preferred shot pattern, come hell or high winds.  

Tom

This is a very wise statement.  I remember vividly an elite player who got the the final of a Carnegie Shield 20 years or so ago and was 2 up at the turn playing his wonderful high fade ball game (against a clearly inferior local player), but then tried to hit the ball hooky and low (like the local) coming back into the wind and never won another hole, eventually losing 3 and 2.  As they say, you gotta dance with the girl you brought to the prom......

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #89 on: May 30, 2005, 10:20:53 AM »
Tom Doak,

It seems that Pacific Dunes, overwhelmingly favors a draw.

Don't most courses buffeted by strong winds ?

Pat

Can I surmise that your "natural" shot is a draw?

As they say, to a man with a hammer everything looks like a nail......... ;)

NO

My  Natural shot was a fade-slice, but I changed that because my ball got eaten alive on windy days, and I didn't have Nicklaus's power.

That was in the days when the ball moved.

I try to hit a draw, but with today's equipment, getting good movement out of the ball requires exagerated techniques.

I also think that the early architects viewed a fade as a mishit ball for most righties.
[/color]

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #90 on: May 30, 2005, 12:12:33 PM »
Pat:

Many of the early or classic architects probably did favor a draw, because most of them were very good players.

MacKenzie was an exception, there is clearly a fade bias on a lot of his courses to my eye.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #91 on: May 30, 2005, 12:18:03 PM »
Tom,

Do you think MacKenzie favored a fade because of his abilities, or  because he was such a proponent of making courses enjoyable to as many people as possible...assuming the number of people who sliced vs. hook was as disproportionate then as it is now?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #92 on: May 30, 2005, 12:26:45 PM »
Favoring a shot does not always mean that you cannot play it straight-on or with the opposite and be successful, except in the wind, as Mucci pointed out.

Is perhaps too much made of favoring this or that?  Hit the ball straight and the game is easy.

Great discussion on this thread, I too found it neat to hear about Doak building his greens down while Coore builds up.  

With so many options available, so many construction techniques, it is irritating to still see new courses being built that are so uninteresting.    

 
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

TEPaul

Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #93 on: May 30, 2005, 02:10:53 PM »
Pat Muccu said:

"I also think that the early architects viewed a fade as a mishit ball for most righties."

Pat:

It seems at least Geo Crump viewed the slice as a mishit shot but  only if not hit on call ;) and apparently took some architectural steps to both reward and penalize it;

On hole #1:
"Then additional pits should be extended in same line almost to woods beyond fairway to catch long sliced drive."

On hole #3
"G.A.C. said slope of green necessary to keep player from  playing low half topped shot both on left and beyond center. He said correct shot was slice.

On Hole #18;

"He will take out the hump on the green when he gets ready. He put it in to test if anything could be designed to penalize a sliced shot, the green being so large a bad slice might stay on it. He will put in a roll instead of a hump....'

"He always intended to modify the hump on the green into a heavy roll reaching the right hand rear corner to give the player who sliced onto the green a more difficult putt than the player who plays straigth to the center."


« Last Edit: May 30, 2005, 02:16:27 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #94 on: May 30, 2005, 04:52:39 PM »
TEPaul,


I'm sure your dad told you that many of the old pros from the UK used to teach the golf  swing by having the pupil hold a hankerchief under their right arm to promote a draw.  It's a technique that still works, unfortunately it diminishes the arc, resulting in a loss of distance.

Who would think that a flying right elbow would be an accepted technique for greater distance.

If someone builds their greens "down" does that put greater pressure, emphasis and cost on getting the drainage right ?

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #95 on: November 18, 2009, 02:36:08 AM »
Bump

This was an interesting thread - especially for those who love the Top Minimalists!

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #96 on: November 18, 2009, 08:57:15 AM »
Rob:

Yes indeed. I found the idea of architects favouring a draw or fade to be interesting. I can understand why they would, but I would have thought that their own personal game shouldn't ever influence their designs. Am I being naive?

Is this preference for a fade or draw a negative mark against an architect? Something is telling me that it is, but I may be wrong.

Is it any different to an architect that prefers raised greens or cross bunkers etc.?

Dónal.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #97 on: November 18, 2009, 02:36:11 PM »
It was interesting to see this come up again, because in the past month I've spent a bit of time with Bill Coore, walking the same piece of property for an upcoming project where we may be working together (or side by side).  I can now say with confidence that often he sees different things than I do, or perhaps it's better to say his routings are driven by different things than mine, since we are both seeing the same features but using them much differently.

We are trying to figure out together whether it is better to put 36 holes on this one interesting piece of ground (which may or may not be big enough for that), or just to spread out 18 holes on it, and build a second course further south that would have to be much more manufactured.  To do that, you've got to lay out the best 18 holes, and the best 36, and see what you're giving up with the latter, and then contrast that to what you MIGHT be able to do on the adjacent site.  It's a very complicated problem, really ... more so than even our potential client understands.

Can't tell you much more about it than that for right now, other than the good news that this site is in America, and not in China, and it looks highly likely that the project will actually happen!  [And please, don't speculate on it or ask questions, or you might cause some other architect to get the job instead, and I'm not going to confirm or deny anything about the specific project until the client says so.]  However, I'm happy to talk about the process.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #98 on: November 18, 2009, 02:43:41 PM »
Very interesting Tom, thanks for talking a bit about it and I hope it happens.  Thinking of you two working together caused me to wonder as well if you could ever imagine working on a golf course with Pete & Alice Dye in the future.  Could you?


Jim Colton

Re: Minimalists -- Are there differences?
« Reply #99 on: November 18, 2009, 02:45:10 PM »
Did you hear the collective SCHWING of GCA'ers reading Tom's post?

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