possible blasphemy:should St. Andrews be dropped from the rota?

[PThomas]

isn't it really too short anymore?  even with the added length?  can't one argue that a lot of it is goofy golf  -- which Augusta is often on the borderline of, I read sometimes--for the pros, since so many of the holes can be/can almost be  driven, that too much of the course's defense depends upon the green complexes?

Merion is gone from the US Open rota due to its length, so if a course of that stature is gone shouldn't SA be too?

are they still playing Opens at SA "just because"  it's TOC???

and believe me, no one loves the game's history more than me, and no one is dying to play TOC more than I......

...but maybe TOC is no longer a worthy test for the best in the world  

[Pete Lavallee]

Paul,

How much did you have to drink this weekend?
Get on that plane and play TOC and I'm sure you'll realize that whether it's windy and they shoot a few under or it not and they shoot better than 20 under it will still be the most enjoyable golf you'll se on TV all year. TOC will never go out of style!

[PThomas]

Pete -- only a couple of beers!!

and don't get me wrong:  as I said I am DYING to go play it...but it almost seems as if it is for the big boys-- to use the word Tiger did to describe Colonial -- obsolete!

[Pete Lavallee]

What has and still will keep TOC from being obsolete is the green complexes and the truely random nature of the bunkering; no matter how far or short you hit it, there's always one waiting to ruin your day.

[Tom Dunne]

According to opengolf.com, the course is measured at 7,279 yards for this year's tournament. How is that too short?

[Darren_Kilfara]

Delete the word "possible" from the thread title, and you'd be much nearer the mark...

[PThomas]

I remember from past BOs' the boys just blasting away and coming close to driving too many of the greens...
hopefully the added length will make the green complexes less imporant

[ForkaB]

I'm playing there tomorrow with the Mad Armenian and some of his friends and will be pleased to offer a completely unbiased report on this issue afterwards.

[Philippe Binette]

as I said I am DYING to go play it...but it almost seems as if it is for the big boys-- to use the word Tiger did to describe Colonial -- obsolete!


How come Tiger said Colonial is obsolete. He's never played there in competition.

Odds of him winning at Colonial 0%

 
 

[Philippe Binette]

If the wind is up (25 mph) all four days, 5 under is winning at St. Andrews...

[Jfaspen]

yes.. now if only the GCA gods could control the wind to avoid what happened in 2000.

[Chris Kane]

They've added quite a bit of yardage for this year's tournament.  Don't expect the scores to be particularly low.

[Chris_Clouser]

Philippe,

Where did that quote from Tiger come from?  How can a par 70 over 7000 yards in length be obsolete?  It's longer than a lot of courses they play on tour.  

[PThomas]

I read the Tiger quote in GOlf World...I don't think there was any elaboration provided

[Dan King]

People have been driving greens at the Old Course for over 100 years. Supposedly Young Tom Morris already made the Old Course obsolete almost 150 years ago. Somehow it has still held up just fine.

Some of the holes at St. Andrews are suppose to be drivable. Why is it bad now, but wasn't bad 100 years ago?

Tiger Woods won the 2000 Open at 19-under. He won by something like nine shots. He planned his way around the course and spent four days avoiding bunkers. If the field was as smart as Woods perhaps they could have gotten close to Woods. But luckily for golf the average golf pro is about as dumb as the clubs in their bag.

Dan King

I really do not see why we should allow the Haskell to come in. It should be slaughtered at the ports. The discovery of a ball that flies considerably further would be a menace to the game of golf. It would immediately make all of our holes the wrong length.
  --Manchester Guardian, 1901

[jim_lewis]

They will be playing the Open at The Old Course long after all of us, including Tiger Woods, are "obsolete".

[Mark_F]

Paul,

Some call it blasphemy, I would call it common sense.

Notice all the Old Course diehards have mentioned "if."  
Whilst most links courses - and of course all others - rely to some degree on the wind to make the course interesting, TOC needs the wind to be challenging.  

Even without the extra yardage, with those hard fairways, it's way too short for the pros.  

As a championship test?  It's a joke.

[Darren_Kilfara]

Notice all the Old Course diehards have mentioned "if."  

I haven't said that, nor do I feel inclined to suggest that. Sure, St. Andrews is obsolete as a venue for the Open - the U.S. Open, that is. It's not likely to produce a repeat of recent Opens at Carnoustie and Royal St. George's, where the winning score was at or above par. So? It's still a very interesting test no matter what the weather is; if it's calm, you get something like what happened in 1990 (before the technology explosion, I might add) where double-digits under par scores were commonplace, and if it's windy-ish, you get something like what happened in 1995, when Daly and Rocca posted winning scores of 282. But to say that the course is not a championship test is simply wrong - you have to think, you have to drive the ball intelligently as well as long, you have to play a wide variety of shots around the greens, and you have to be a good lag putter as well as hole your putts from 20 feet and in. I'd rather see the wind get up and see a winning score in the 280s rather than the 260s or 270s, but just because a course doesn't always offer a firm defense of par doesn't mean it's automatically unworthy of hosting a major championship.

Cheers,
Darren

[Sean_A]

Mark F

A championship has nothing to do with scoring.  Scoring is a USGA hangup.  For the Open, shotmaking is what matters.  With a bit of luck, scoring will follow.
 
I wonder what the pros think?  What are the odds that most of the pros that know the course well can't wait to tee it up on TOC?

Ciao

Sean

[Mike_Cirba]

I dunno...if they keep having to incongruously add awkwardly routed new back tees every five minutes as they've been doing while simultaneously neutering the Road Hole bunker to make it "fair" so as not to embarrass the pros, then there might be something to this notion.

[Darren_Kilfara]

I dunno...if they keep having to incongruously add awkwardly routed new back tees every five minutes as they've been doing while simultaneously neutering the Road Hole bunker to make it "fair" so as not to embarrass the pros, then there might be something to this notion.

Mike, I completely agree with you that TOC has suffered in quality from the awkwardly routed new tees and the butchery of Road Bunker. But that doesn't make the course any more or less of a test than it was before, does it? (Maybe re: the bunker, but it's still the same hazard to avoid...)

[Mike_Cirba]

Darren;

Agreed.  TOC has had a history in my lifetime of producing superb champions, and before anyone mentions John Daly as being not worthy, go back and watch his amazing play that weekend.

[Marty Bonnar]

...it should now.

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=566152005

FBD.

[RJ_Daley]

This is probably worth a new thread, but...

It seems like the perfect set up for a fairy tale ending.   If the townspeople are in accord with all those interviewed, who express regret and embarrassment, then they ought to turn out in force and make a popular grass roots show of appreciation for JN.  By popular accolade, a far greater statement would be made, IMHO.  

[ForkaB]

Did Arnie get elected a freeman of St. Andrews?

Did Jack name his "home" course "St. Andrews Village?"

The primary stupidity here was in the Council's taking this to a secret ballot without knowing what the outcome would be.

Vis a vis the topic, as I have said often before, the real question is whether or not any other course should be on the "rota" (i.e. should there be a rota at all?).  I have long thought that the world of golf would be a better place if every Open were held on TOC and US Opens were alternated between Pebble Beach and Shinnecock (or Bethpage, if SH members are not keen on the idea).  Location should be the key rather than "quality" or some playground PC philosophy that "everybody should get a chance to play."

Having played TOC yesterday, I still believe this.  Which is not to say, of course, that I believe TOC to be "great."