Why aren't there more GREEN/TEE complexes ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

NGLA is my favorite golf course for a multitude of reasons and features, some of them unique.

One of those features is the seamless transition from green to tee as evidenced on the first green-second tee complex.

Gil Hanse employed this configuration successfully at AppleBrook, even on holes requiring long approach shots.

Why don't we see more of this feature.

Why does it appear that the distance between the green and the next tee is becoming more of a hike on many courses being developed ?  

Is it the land,
Is it the use,
Is it the type of membership
is it the architect

Do you like this feature ? and why/why not ?

[Ted O'Hearn]

This is about the best photo I have seen illustrating, what Patric is talking about, but I don't know if I sent this phot correctly.  

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I love that feature too--just love it! To get some tees as close to greens as Gil did though (with the melded mowing) is getting real close to questions of safety and liability though.

As for why it doesn't happen so much anymore I'd say, land use prioritized for other things, the cart, liability, etc.

Merion West has a nice melded situation on #9/10 and Friar's on #6/7. To do that kind of thing could be a bit tricky though with green siting and also planning tee length elasticity for the future--there's a lot to consider--but it's a wonderful feature--all close-coupled green/tee courses are in my book.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I had forgotten about Friar's Head and the 6th green/7th tee, which I liked a great deal as well.

I'm curious if the proximity to NGLA had anything to do with the building of that tee ?  Ken Bakst, can you shed any light on the design of that complex ?

[TEPaul]

The extra interesting thing about #6/7 at Friar's appeared to be that the tee behind #6 really had almost no real definition at all (as a tee). The back of #6 just appeared to flow into the area where you tee off on #7.

[Mark_Fine]

Safety Pat, safety!  If you think about the few modern courses that have them, they are mostly private.  

[BCrosby]

Good topic.

The transitions from green to tee are one of the many wonderful features at Cuscowilla (C&C). Even the ones that require a little walk seem just right.

The green/tee transition can really add to the feel of a course. I wish more attention was paid to them by designers.

Bob

  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Fine,

I don't know that the safety issue is that much of a real versus perceived factor.

NGLA has been there since 1911, and I've never heard of an incident.  That doesn't mean that they haven't happened, I've just never heard of one.
In fact, there are an abundant number of green-tee
complexes at NGLA that are in very close proximity to one another.  4 green/5tee, 7green/8tee, 8green/9tee,
11green/12tee, 12green/13tee, 15green/16tee,
17green/18tee.  Add to that the walk backs to tees from greens that bring the golfer back into play, such as 5green/6tee, 9green/10tee, and 14green/15tee.

GCGC has # 4green/5tee, 7green/8tee, 10green/11tee,
13green/14tee, and I see them as less of a hazard than
# 7 tee off of # 13 tee.

I would imagine that the sensitivity level would be higher at NON-PRIVATE clubs, but at private clubs I can't see it being a significant issue.  Do the crossovers at Lehigh create an acceptable risk ?  A member, playing NGLA, AppleBrook, and Friar's Head are well aware of the situation, and as such, accept the risk.

Most shots do not go long, and I would imagine, employing angles, that the next tee could be removed from the centerpoint of the targeted green.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

That's the amazing thing about many of those really tight green to tee holes, the tees (back generally) are right behind the center point of the green. Think about the ones mentioned--almost all of them are. Things like this pretty much have to be on private courses for obvious reasons. I'd challenge anyone to cite something like that on a course that was designed and built exclusively for public golf.

[Forrest Richardson]

There are two issuses on green-to-tee relationships:

#1 -- Land use and design for the psychology of the setting; "how it feels" to move from one green to the next tee. One path can appear seemless while one can be an adventure. Neither is necessarily good or bad -- it is a matter of what is called for and what the architect wants to happen.

#2 -- Safety and gemoetry. There is no grey area, really. Depending on site and shot approaches and type of course there is a good and a bad.

I suggest that many old layouts ("classics") have very close relationships (by geometry) as they do not receive as much play as the daily fee municipal course of the same era. There are very few examples of 200-300 round-per-day courses ("classics") where such close proximity exists -- unless someone has erected a screen or wall. I am speaking geometrically, still.

Psychology of proximity can be mastered and still provide safe set-backs.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Lu Lu just north of Philly has the same feature 5 green/6 tee, but 6 tee is off the back right of green, where few will miss on long, uphill approach.  Private club as well.

[John Foley]

The 9th green/10th tee @ Pinehurst #2 was about the best melded green/tee complex I've ever seen. Now the distance was extremely close, the area was all mown to chipping level and was very contigous. For a tee sliced.pushed/blocked shot on #9 that area offers an enurmous amounts of options.

[ForkaB]

Tom P

I know it's cheating, but TOC was "designed" as a public course and has tee-green complexes that would give wet dreams to most American trial lawyers.  There are numerous other courses on the British Isles which were designed primarily for the public, with similar features on many holes.  Also, a public course which I played a few times growing up, Hubbard Heights in Stamford, CT was built entirely of tee-green-"fairway" complexes.  It was nearly impossible to distinguish any of these "architectural" features, so you pretty much routed the course yourself when you played it, always keeping an eye out for stray pelotas..........

[redanman]

I would imagine that any course with concrete, etc. cart paths would make this feature near impossible to use.  

The direct green-tee meld is a very nice feature, likely  best left to walking only,  private,  core clubs.  I like them a lot personally, such as 2-3 at Applebrook.  One thing it does is create larger areas for interesting recovery shots and potentially high numbers due to the nature of the shots.

Patrick:

How do you see the "crossovers" at Lehigh as even a potential problem.  The crosses over are between greens and tees and no real jeopardy exists, especially with the multitudes of ornamental   beautification plantings near the areas in question anyway.

[John Bernhardt]

Baxter Spann and I discussed this very issue as we walked from the 2nd to the 3rd hole at Blaketree National outside Houston last week. I had noticed how natural the flow was from 1 green to 2 tee and then the same after 2 to 3. He and I talked of how this is as much a lost art in architecture as opposed to a legal issue. The real estate design stressed as much lot frontage on courses thereby promoting moving tees further from greens and ultimately to the horrible over hill and dale course we have seen in the last 15 or so years. The first 11 holes at Blaketree are as natural as one will find in a modern course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Redanman,

Cart paths can be placed beyond the tee such that the don't come in to play from the previous green.

I thought golfers might take short cuts to the next tee, especially to the short and ladies tees

[Mike Hendren]

Perhaps another victim of the aerial game?  The rough or topo could be utilized to brake the running ball, but there is no protection from the air-mailed whistler.  Also, much better to catch one in the ankle  >:(than on the noggin

Regards,

Mike

[Eric Pevoto]

Downingtown Country Club, after renovation work by Gil Hanse, has a couple of green/tee melds: the fifth green/sixth tee and more notably, the 17th green and 18th tee.  The back tee of 18 comes out of the back right side of 17 green.

It is a fairly busy public course and in the time I was there we never had any problems (knock on wood), though we would often move the tee markers forward when larger events were played from the black tees  

It's another touch that helps to give the place an older feel.