Hidden Creek -- Top 100 Modern

[TEPaul]

"Redanman,
I wouldn't fly across an ocean to play any golf course either."

Pat:

I agree with you this time---I wouldn't either. I might consider flying across any ocean to play with Heidi Klum though.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you. I do not think there is one course you have mentioned that is better than Hidden Creek.

I have played or walked the following:

Aronimink (post restoration)
Woodhall Spa
Berkshire Red
Sunningdale Old
Swinley Forest

None of these beat HC in my opinon.  In thirty years time when HC has history which all of these have to their advantage it will be classed a classic.

Brian

Brian,

Wow...you must really like Hidden Creek!  

I like it a great deal as well, yet I can't make that mental leap.  To me, the vision of the owner and C&C's talents certainly maximized the site as much as one could using a minimalist approach.

However, the site has some limitations in my opinion;

The site was completely forested and not with the large pines that cover much of the Jersey Pine Barrens region, but mostly by less impressive deciduous trees.  Unlike, say Friar's Head, there was really not much in the way of variety to the site and even though clearings were done impressively, it is still somewhat of "corridor golf", with no real vistas to enhance the course, or even, as Jason Blasberg mentioned, much in the way of seeing other holes.  Ultimately, I think that's why some people reported a general sameness in appearance on some holes and a feeling of "haven't we played this hole before" sort of thinking.  Personally, I think C&C did a great job in trying to come up with different appearances to each hole, yet the "frame" never changes and holes with centering bunker schemes tend to blend together.

While there is 40 feet of elevation change overall on the property, and is well utilized, it is not a course that I would call rolling.  Most of the changes in slope are very "micro" and although a lot was made in discussion about uneven lies, I can only recall one that really factored into a shot result (the 18th, where our group was all on the downslope pitching to the perched green).  Perhaps growing up in the Poconos I have a somewhat different interpretation of what "uneven" entails.

Although much of the soil in the region is pretty sandy, the soil at HC is better described as a mix of sand and loam with some clay.  

From a design standpoint, although I clearly understand the intent to somewhat emulate the style of the Heathland courses, I do not find that the man-made hazards and features "tie in" to natural features very well in many cases.  They sort of "pop up" out of the ground, and while some love them as a quirky novelty, I much prefer to see those man-made slopes and crevasses tied into something natural.  

I also "get" that there are a lot of subtleties and some wonderful greens.  As a 0 handicap player in our group explained, "it's a course where you feel that you should make a lot of birdies, but I'm guessing you wouldn't".  That's ok, that's cool...I get it, but I'm also guessing that very few holes also have a wide variance in scoring because the fairways and greens are SOO spacious and forgiving in their accommodation of all levels of player that you have to hit some really bad shots to screw up big time on most holes (trust me, I know).  

I can't think of a shot that gets the adrenaline running, that turns the knuckles white, and makes even the best player think twice before shooting at the flag.

That's ultimately why I think it's a VERY good course, but not a great one.
 

[Eric Pevoto]

Mike,

That's a very nice summation of the place.  I'll just say, where I'm from, that's rolling terrain!

After reading Jason Blasberg's comments, I went back and looked at the aerial to see where vistas could have possibly been opened.  With the terrain and routing, I think the opportunities were minimal, at best.  The height of the trees would also limit this.  It is very much corridor, or isolated golf.  Certainly not bad, just what it is.  

For variety and memoribility (sic?), the par 3's are varied and easy to recall.  The longer holes, particularly the long 4's, are difficult for me to place, even looking at the aerial.  I wonder if this has to do with the corridors and loss of relation to other holes?

As for features and shaping, with respect to greens, so many of the greens extended right out of the fairway.  Attractive, in my opinion, and fun to play.  But the backs and sides of the greens were clearly not meant to be tied into the surrounds.  I've never seen any of the heathland courses, but it reminded me of CC of Scranton and Travis courses I've seen in photos in which rather sharp, peaked mounds are piled around the green.  The green pad then extends up onto these mounds.

One aspect that surprised me was the lack of angles.  I don't know if it's due to the size of the greens, the majority of straightish corridors, or my play this first time around.  If you look at the aerial, I think the majority of hazards are side-lying, rather than central.  Eight (my favorite hole out there) stands out as an exception.

[Brian Phillips]

Mike,

Thanks for the reply.  Does that mean you rate all of those courses above HC?

Brian

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

Thanks for the reply.  Does that mean you rate all of those courses above HC?

Brian

Brian,

I have never been to England, unfortunately, so I can't claim any Heathland knowledge firsthand.  Knowing you are on the other side of the pond, I thought I'd provide them to you as a reference point, particularly given the course's Heathland inspiration.

Of those in the region that I've played, let's say for discussion purposes that I give HC a 6.5;

Plainfield – 8
Somerset Hills – never played
Aronimink (pre restoration) – 7.5 (I've only played it post-restoration)
Huntingdon Valley – 7.5 (it's my favorite Flynn I've played in the area)
Lancaster – never played
Philly Country Club – 7
Philly Cricket Club – never played
Rolling Green – 7
Saucon Valley (Old) – seen but never played..viewing I'd give it a 6.5
Saucon Valley (Grace) – never played

I mentioned previously that I give Galloway National a 7.5 and Twisted Dune a 6.5

So, yes, I don't quite have it at the lofty level of the very best courses in the region but it's certainly comfortably in their midst.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Geoff,

The only reason I went to Bandon, Oregon was to be with 7 friends for a few days of golf.  We played Pumpkin Ridge, Tokatee, Sand Pines, Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, not just one course.

The fun and wild discussions I had in the ride in the van, from point to point, with three friends was one of the most enjoyable parts of the trip, and something I'll forever cherish.

As to Sand Hills, if it wasn't for the bunch of fellows that I'll be with, I wouldn't make a trip just to play a golf course.

Mike Cirba,

Had I set the pins, you'd still be complaining.
I would have had you chipping all day long.

Those pins were benign so that the field and members could get around in a reasonable time.

I would have put the pins in the following position.

Hole #                                   Location

1                                       back right
2                                       front far right
3                      back left, any far front or far right
4                      behind the bunker
5                      back
6                      almost anywhere
7                       behind the bunker
8                       behind the hump
9                       back right
10                     near the fallaway ridge
11                     far right
12                     back left or along the left bunkers
13                     far right
14                     back center, just in front of the bunker
15                     front along the ridge
16                     far left
17                     far left
18                     on the back tier or far right or far left

You'd still be out there.

 

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

To shut out the lights on a blind man is redundant.  

On the other hand, you should have seen some of my lag "putts" from 30 yards out.  I got down in two 3 times that way.  Now, if every course provided that convenient option around the greens!!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Eric Pevoto,

Did you overlook the two center of the fairway bunkers on the 2nd hole ?

The center of the fairway hazard on the second shot at
# 5, # 9 and # 17 ?

How would you classify the sand pit on # 3, flanking or centerline on your approach to the green ?

[Eric Pevoto]

Pat,

Wish I'd posted this on the architecture rather than the rating thread, but here goes.

I wasn't ignoring your question (even though I was wrong!). Had to do my homework.  I should know better than to make a statement based on a vague feeling.

Take a look at this aerial.  The scribbling in orange is general movement of the terrain (taken from memory and a topo).  HERE is the link to the topo.

The straightish yellow lines tee to green are a basic line of instinct.  Topography and corridors are going tend to push toward least resistance.  

Frankly, I was surprised at the number of times a hazard lay directly on those lines.  Interestingly, some are not even in play.  Look at #1 and #12, for example.  Beacon bunkers, I guess.  

Good exercise.
[edit]I wanted to add, I'm impressed by the complexity of this golf course.  The scale is really grand.  And while the ground movement may be relatively subtle, there is a TON of it (look at the topo).  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Eric,

Thanks for the aerial and lines of play.

[PThomas]

there's a few courses I'd fly cross-country to play for sure!

[THuckaby2]

Can someone either post here, or send me,
the correct summation of the Doak scale?

Mike Nuzzo says I loused it up, and I believe him...
But I am just quoting what someone sent me
before.  Here's what was sent to me:

0= poisonous
1= very basic
2= not offensive but offers very little.
3= average golf course.
4= above average but nothing to distinguish itself
5= well above average, likely to have several distinctive holes.  But not worth a special trip.
6= very good course, would be one of the best courses in any area.  Play if reasonably closeby.
7= excellent and no obvious weaknesses, eventhough it might not offer anything unique.  Play within 100 miles.
8= a course of distinction, worth travelling substantial distances to.
9= a world great, may have one or two weaker holes, but a slew of world great holes too.
10= perfect, don't even miss one hole

I'd love a better summation.. given it only comes up what,
every other post here.