The Benefits of 27 holes... Is more always better?

[Adam_F_Collins]

My club is considering a plan to build 27 holes in its new location. I'm wondering what people think about the benefits of such a move as well as any detractors.

To most people, it just seems like more is better. But is that really the case? Does it generally make the club more economically efficient?

Are there any downsides? What are they?

 

[Jeff_Mingay]

Also, how large is the parcel of land?

My advice would be, don't jam 27 holes on a piece of ground that would yield a good 18 hole course. In other words, don't sacrifice quality for quantity.  

[JESII]

Adam

Those logistical issues stated above make sense, I am going to assume land is not a problem, and that there is a financial incentive for the club. Maybe this would allow for the addition of a large block of new members, or relieve an already overused 18 holes, whatever.

My home course was built in the 1920's with 27 holes designed and built all at the same time by Toomey and Flynn. During the Depression or the Second World War the club ceased maintenance on one of the nines. In the mid-90's a group of members formulated a strategy to rebuild it as close as possible to the original (two holes required alteration due to current driving range). This nine was chosen to be 'let go' due to a geographical disconnect with the other 18 and so, in the name of being efficient, that simply made the most sense. Wayne might have an aerial that could be posted to illustrate if he checks in here.

Now that the C-nine has been back in play for about 7 years I would recommend a couple of ideas;
1) To avoid the "no one course" problem, just let the architect you choose know that you want one nine separated from the other two geographically so there is a clear flow of 18 holes.
2) Begin the third nine with the intention of utilizing it for ancillary golf functions (ie: outings, juniors etc..). But make sure it can flow with the other two nines so that a rotation is not an issue at certain times. This eases the transition during heavy maintenance periods and such.

Good luck

[Rob_Waldron]

The only "Great" 27 Hole course I can think of is The Country Club outside of Boston. The USGA made up the 18 hole routing for the US Open using a compilation of holes.

If 27 holes are deemed necessary then I would recommend a core 18 hole course with an "extra" 9 holes.

1. 27 holes can provide an economy of scale from a maintanence perspective resulting in a lower cost per hole.

2. The extra nine provides golf for non tournament participants during a tournament.

3. Holes from the extra nine can provide an alternative 18 hole routing if holes on the core 18 are being worked on.

4. The extra nine can be designed specifically for junior and beginners in an effort free up space on the core 18.

5. The extra nine can help accomodate more golfers for larger outings and member events.

6. The extra nine can also provide a golfing alternative for players with limited time.

If you have the space, why not build it?

[Mike_Sweeney]

I definitely fall into the camp of 18 holes + 9 holes. The 9 hole course at Enniscrone gets more play in the afternoon from couples, kids.... It separates out everything nicely, especially at a family type course.

[cary lichtenstein]

Never liked 27 holers, always felt like 3 disjointed 9's.

They lose the flow of 18.

What I think would be neat would be to build a great 18 hole course, and a par 3 that is for lack of a better term, a championship par 3, with full length regulation holes, none of this 60 yard junk.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Southern Hills has 27 holes, 9 of them by none other than C&C.

Outside of that, my experience with 27 hole courses is they tend to be medicore.  I guess the answer is "it depends".  It depends on what kind of course it is (private, public, resort, etc) and the goals.  Maybe a par 3 course or practice area would be better use.

It does allow you to rest 9 holes while continuing to play 18. Invariable one 9 always seems weaker though.

I always felt that the 36 holes at Newcastle golf club in Bellevue, WA would have been better as 27 holes. It would have eliminated some of the poorer holes.

[Dan Kelly]

I'm with Redanman, 100 percent.

[JESII]

I'm with Redanman, 100 percent.

I'm curious Dan, do you mean you are presently sitting with Redanman, or are you 100% in support of his early position that "27 holes is universally awful because there is never a "course"", or his current post that PCC has a high quality 18 hole course and a lesser utilized 9 holes thereby refuting his own first sentence ?

[Ted Kramer]

Ridgewood CC doesn't seem to struggle with 27.
Granted I was only there 1x, but it sure seemed like a great club with great golf to me . . .

In my opinion, 27 can be done well without the "last nine" being completely seperate.

-Ted

[JESII]

JES

he's indeed on my lap  (At least in my posse)  

I think this is the proper face for that post

[Dan Kelly]

I'm with Redanman, 100 percent.

I'm curious Dan, do you mean you are presently sitting with Redanman, or are you 100% in support of his early position that "27 holes is universally awful because there is never a "course"", or his current post that PCC has a high quality 18 hole course and a lesser utilized 9 holes thereby refuting his own first sentence ?

JES II --

I'm not currently sitting with Redanman, and don't expect to be doing so presently. But who knows? Life is mysterious!

But not so mysterious that I could agree with something he hadn't yet posted!

Of course, I don't see any contradiction between his posts.

He's saying (I believe): If you have three "equivalent" 18s, all of which are part of "the course" and are played in rotation, then you don't have A course; you have six courses, none of which is THE course. And he doesn't like that. And neither do I.

Give me an 18 and a 9, but not a 27.

DK (I)

P.S.  

[Doug Braunsdorf]

My home course was built in the 1920's with 27 holes designed and built all at the same time by Toomey and Flynn.

Now that the C-nine has been back in play for about 7 years

Jim-

  Nice to meet you at HC Monday.  
  How does the "C"  nine figure in to regular member play at HVCC?  

  I realize the "Toomey"and "Flynn" nines (do I have it right?) are the "main" course.  

  Are all 27 open at the same time, or is there a schedule?  

  Mike Policano, another GCA member, could tell us more in-depth how Ridgewood manages their 27 holes.  From what he had told me in the past, it works rather well for member play, and allows a lot of members to play.  

[JESII]

DK

Redanman said "27 holes is universally awful because you never have a course".
Redanman also said "Phila CC has a distinctly different (Just happens to be Fazio) 9 and a Flynn 18.  THe Fazio course gets little use, but it is distinctly different and removed from the real course."

That seems fairly contradictory to me.

Obviously you had not seen his post #9 prior to posting your own #8, but I thought the timing funny.

[JESII]

Douglas

Nice to put a face with your name as well.

Other than heavy maintenance days such as aeration and such, all three nines are open for play with one caveat, play must go in the following order > A-B, B-C or C-A. The group on the course takes precedence over those starting their rounds, in other words, if I've played the C nine and heading to the A nine and you are on the first tee of the A nine starting your round, you are asked to let me go.

The greens crew does a very good job of preparing consistent playing conditions across all three nines, however the C-nine handles about 20% of the play of the other two. This is an issue we are trying to solve with little success thus far.

The addition of this third nine has enabled us to increase our revenues in two ways; additional capacity = additional members dues payments, and additional outing revenue including some smaller mid-week outings that only very slightly interferes with member play.

[JESII]

Redanman

You haven't cleard this up yet.

Why / How is Metedeconk hurt by having three nines of equal quality and character radiating from the same spot? If I were a member there I'd be damn happy to have three courses to choose from that could be played in two orders (getting to DK's six course total) that are all of high quality and consistent character.

Your argument can only approach validity in a situation in which the third nine, for whatever reason (proximity, quality, playability), is grossly under utilized, but is kept in the rotation of mandatory play.

I can only see your position about Metedeconk factoring in when you come back from playing there and want to discuss your 18 holes with me (knowing I have just been there) and we can't because I played the nine you did not in my rotation and I'm not familiar with the other. If that is the leg you're standing on, look out because it's buckling .

[Jason Topp]

The course I played for the last 10 years, Bunker Hills in Coon Rapids, Minnesota, has 27 holes.  18 were built in the mid 60's and then an additional 9 was added around 1990.  (There is also a 9 hole executive course).  

While the holes do not blend real well in character, I think it is a wonderful arrangement.  Of the original 18, 9 were kept together and the other nine was allocated between the additional 9's.  Tee times are in 2 hour blocks going off all 3 nines.  

I think there are a lot of advantages to the arrangement:

1.  It is a terrific way to build camraderie in a large public course because there is a huge mass of people that warm up together, play at the same time and then return for lunch or happy hour after the round.  

2.  It effectively triples the number of early morning tee times on weekends compared to having everyone tee off on one.  

3.  A pretty large event can be held while at the same time having the rest of the course available for regular play.

4.  It provide variety to the regular player, allowing one to play 3 different 18 hole courses.  Double that to 6 if you vary the tees you use.

5.  The course can shut down a nine for maintenence while still allowing for a lot of play.

6.  During the late season, the course has "Original 18" events that allow all to play the original course (which is used for the state open and was used for a Senior Tour event).

[Jason Topp]

I would also add that I do not agree that one nine needs to be mediocre.  That seems like a design flaw.  

I also do not relate to the one 18 concept.  If each 9 is good, who cares which 9's you play?

[Adam_F_Collins]

This is very interesting. The responses so far suggest that a 27 hole course, if designed that way from the start, should carefully consider what their goals are.

Do they want three, similar layouts which can be seamlessly blended into a solid 18 in 6 combinations?

or

Do they want 1 9 to play as a separate experience (perhaps easier, shorter, etc)?

or

Do they want to have three distinct 9's which may be combined into pairs of differing nines?

This could present interesting design challenges.  Especially if the intent is to make three 9's which, whatever of the six combinations are chosen, still comprise an excellent course which fits together well.

[Brent Hutto]

Most of my opinions have already been expressed by Jason and others but I think a club having 27 holes is a good thing, especially if all 27 holes are of comparable quality such that little is lost by playing a round on any combination of nines.

There are days when a tournament is taking place but members who aren't in the tournament want to play anyway. Having at least nine holes they can play is great.

There are days when nine holes have to be closed for maintenance. Having a full 18-hole course to play on those days is awfully nice.

Being able to send morning foursomes off of two tees without them knowing they'll be backed up when they hit the tenth tee is a big benefit. Or you can even send morning foursomes off all three nines to maximize morning tee times.

For those of us who play 100+ rounds a year at our home course, being able to play different combinations of nines for variety is fun.

Finally, this is idiosyncratic for me and my home course but given how hilly the course is playing 36 in a day is awfully tiring and a 27-hole day is more reasonable. It is nice to play 27 without having to repeat any holes. I like to play in the Saturday morning dogfight on the tournament 18 and then on Sunday play the whole course. That's a good weekend of golf for me.

I think there's nothing wrong with having an "extra nine" that's shorter or easier or just very different than the regular rotation of holes. However, many of the advantages I perceive don't apply if one nine is basically an executive or beginner's course. At our club, the extra nine is definitely the easiest of the three but they're putting in a way-back tee on the Par 3 finishing hole and that will go a long way toward making scoring on that nine similar to the others, although there still won't be a really long Par 4.

[Kyle Harris]

Mountain Valley up in the PA Coal region has 27 (temporarily, adding a new nine for 36 holes). They'll run 18 holes a day, and give the other 9 a "break."

It works out well, and others can play the third nine after their round if they'd like.

Unfortunately, they manage the nines terribly when there is a lot of play and 5-6 hour rounds can get normal.

[George Pazin]

The Benefits of 27 holes... Is more always better?

Not at Timber Point.