What makes a great second shot to a par 5?

[Geoffrey Childs]

In the Hidden Creek better late then never discussion I mentioned that the second (layup) shots into the par 5 #'s 3 and 9 were truly excellent.  Coore and Crenshaw are perhaps the best in history at creating challenging and interesting layups to par 5's.

At HC #9 for instance the use of a clusster of trees on the left and a string of bunkers on the right to a diagonal fairway to the left creates a situation where both distance, trajectory and direction are important considerations. Too much club on a line to far right and you are in the bunkers.  To low and left and the trees com into play. Place your drive on the right and you can't reach the green but the angle of the 2nd shot is better.

Sand Hills has these interesting options in spades as well.

Siwanoy's finishing hole and a par 5 on the front side (#5?) uses a creek at a diagonal to create interesting options for layups short of the creek and going over it for an easy wedge.

Are diagonals be they bunkers, water, mounds with highr grass or other "hazards" the only way to create interesting options for a second shot into a par 5?

Are there good examples?

[Ted Kramer]

Although I haven't played Hidden Creek it sounds like what you are describing is very closely related to  . . .

Bethpage Black #4
that lay-up is all about angles and proper distance control.

-Ted

[Geoffrey Childs]

Yes indeed Ted - although the Bethpage version could be of the heroic carry variety of shot as well.  

The holes at HC could be played with a putter.

[Ken_Cotner]

Forest Creek South (original) course, #4? -- first par 5.  Diagonal bunkers across the fairway.  Try to carry them, risk a very difficult uphill bunker shot; lay up on the right side for a shorter shot but a tough angle; lay up on the left side for a better angle but longer approach.

Ken

[Patrick_Mucci]

Geoff,

Few par 5's have any true risk reward involved in the second shot, especially as it relates to the angle of attack on the final approach shot, which I feel should be a critical if not important component of the strategy on the hole.

Ridgewood (NJ) might be one of the collective exceptions, as it's a fairly good set of par 5's.

I like # 3 and # 9 at HC a great deal.
There's a neat relationship to drive, second and approach that makes them interesting, fun and challenging.

[JESII]

"What makes a great second shot to a par 5?"

1)Its cause-and-effect relationship to the drive.
2)Its risk-reward options to the third shot.

#'s 3 and 9 at Hidden Creek are certainly strong examples of both requirements.

#5 at Shinnecock might be another example.
#9 at Seminole.

[Mike_Cirba]

What makes a great second shot to a par five?

The answer is simple and Jim Sullivan in our group on #9 Hidden Creek exemplified it;

First, get bad advice from a playing partner whose memory is failing when I tell Jim that the hole drifts to the right.

Then, drive the ball about 290 dead-center just short of the crossing bunker.

Then, launch a 240 yard 3 or 4 iron (Eric and I disputed which club he used) over the corner of the trees to the front fringe, where he lags up the eagle putt and taps in for bird.

Now, THAT's a great second shot to a par five!

[JESII]

Mike,

The fact that you still have a memory at all is evidence that my condition is not nearly as contagious as previously thought, or perhaps you're immune.

[THuckaby2]

These are all great examples for sure.

But you know what makes for a REALLY REALLY great 2nd shot on a par 5?

One that includes several confounding options, none of which is reaching the green.

Think about that for a second.  

Now of course you wouldn't want all par fives to be this way - reaching in two is one of golf's great thrills and the more risk reward that's involved, with the more viable options both safe and risky, the better it is....

But man it's unique when the situation I am citing happens.  There really aren't many holes like this.

And not to get too caught up in excitement over a hidden gem I got to play yesterday, but one exists at the very unsung Riverbend GC in Madera, CA.

Hole #15 - 538 yards from the tees I played.  Double doglef somewhat - first right and then back left.  Wide fairway off the tee - bunkers right, along landing area.  Water left starting a bit past the landing area, on the left, running up to about 100 yards short of green.  Right of the water is waste area, with somewhat high lip - not a place that's death, but not a good spot.  Wide fairway to the right of that, with bunkers at the crux of that 2nd part of the dogleg at the corner.  Green is then back left, raised a bit onto a plateau.  No bunkers in front but running the ball up isn't likely to happen due to the raised nature.

One of my playing partners and I each hit good drives, sat there at about 270 to the green, and damned if we didn't puzzle seemingly forever about what to do next.  Reaching the green wasn't going to happen.  The choices were where to try and put the 2nd shot.  Going over water was shortest route, but required a carry of about 180, with more rough to the left and reaching bunkers possible.  Over waste area was an option too, shorter but also with risks.  Going right along the fairway was very safe, but made the 3rd a lot longer.  

Neither of us ever came to a strong decision, and each thus went on to relatively botch the shot.  The architect won and got in our heads.

And all this on a 2nd that had no chance to reach the green....

To me that is one hell of a great golf hole.  I can't think of many more instances anywhere like it.

TH

[Geoffrey Childs]

These are all great examples for sure.

But you know what makes for a REALLY REALLY great 2nd shot on a par 5?

One that includes several confounding options, none of which is reaching the green.

TH

Huck - That's just what I was thinking of Too. Scary    Now tell us about your beloved Sand Hills #16

[JESII]

One that includes several confounding options, none of which is reaching the green.

TH

Tom

Is the green complex such that it is really unattainable regardless of the distance the player can hit the ball?

It sounds like it accomplishes everything we would want it to in the way of options, but I am curious if you want the overall concept to be one which cannot ever be hit in two for a particular reason.

[THuckaby2]

GC - the crazy thing is, thoughts of such hole did come to mind on my long drive home....which good lord is scary, comparing a hole on this unsung course no one seems to have played but me with the one I call the best in the world.

 

In any case SH#16 is a great example for this concept as well, from the back tees.  From the up tees absent headwind, reaching in two does become possible even for a mortal weakstick like me, so the choices include that, which is great, just not the concept I'm trying to describe here.  From the back tees it's no way Jose, so if anything it's MORE fun... a different fun... because one gets the "what the hell do I do now" quandary on the 2nd, with none of the choices being all that appetizing.

I love holes like this.

Funny a cousin to the great #16 SH exists out in the remote farmland of central CA.

TH

[THuckaby2]

One that includes several confounding options, none of which is reaching the green.

TH

Tom

Is the green complex such that it is really unattainable regardless of the distance the player can hit the ball?

It sounds like it accomplishes everything we would want it to in the way of options, but I am curious if you want the overall concept to be one which cannot ever be hit in two for a particular reason.

JES - no, big bombers could reach this in two.  They could cut the dogleg better, make it shorter, and hell they just hit if far enough.  And the green isn't THAT raised... My thought was just that my sunday best would need a LOT LOT LOT of roll to reach, and that wasn't gonna happen when the last 40 yards or so were quite uphill.  So leaving it 30 yards short, down in a hollow, facing a pitch up, semi-blind... well that's not a shot I choose to have.  And to get to that, I have to carry a lot of water and any pull/hook is dead.  That's an option that's not an option, as I saw it.  Others more bold might want to try that shot and get their "reward."  

Tips streatch to 570 or something, so I'm guessing the hope is that the VAST majority of golfers don't have reaching in two as an option.

But it surely can be done.

It's just a better golf hole, in this case, when that isn't a viable option.

TH

[JESII]

Sounds like it, thanks for the description. Sounds like a cool hole, I also appreciate it when the architect is able to create those issues for a player without the player feeling of being forced into a layup.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

The fact that you still have a memory at all is evidence that my condition is not nearly as contagious as previously thought, or perhaps you're immune.

Jim,

It was a lot of fun.  I did catch you averting your eyes when I had a wedge in my hands early.

Trouble is, I later also saw you averting your eyes when I had a driver in my hands, so you successfully avoided my contagion, as well.  

[THuckaby2]

JES - That's a great addition to this.  Forced layups can only be so good... there's always going to be a dissatisfaction there... that the architect has gone TOO FAR.  This could be saved if the options for the 2nd were numerous, but that would be a tough trick to pull off.

So I guess I should re-work my concept to say reaching the green or getting very close to it is POSSIBLE, it's just not a very viable choice.  The possibility being present adds to the confusion, which is a good thing.

Which come to think of it is also what's going on at Sand Hills #16... length is what prohibits a weaky like me from getting there from the tips... but it's not outside the realm of possibility... as is just trying to get it as close as possible to the green, with no unclearable obstacles preventing such.

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Geoff:

You mentioned the success of C&C / re: par-5 holes. I would submit Jim Engh is no slough in that category either. Take a good look at a recent issue of GolfWeek in which the 18th at Lakota Canyon Ranch in New Castle, CO is featued. Options galore are on that hole.

Engh successfully challenges players with the second shot because the threat of disaster waits for those unable to take a direct route to the green target. Engh provides bailout areas but at the risk in having a more demanding angle, longer distance or a combo of both.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Black Mesa has some of my favorite 2nd shots on their set of par 5s.
Cross bunkers, arroyos, fronting bunkers, blind shots, mounds all get in the way of getting to either your lay up area or the green.  I layed up in an arroyo on the 16th once.  

[Tommy Williamsen]

Both numbers Four and eighteen at Four Streams.  Each of them can be reached in two and both create difficult and thought provoking second shots if it is not possible to reach the green.

Number four has a series of deep bunkers down the right side of the fairway off the tee.  It is better to be on the right side of the fairway as it gives the best angle for the second shot whether you go for the green or not. The is also a series of deep bunkers along the right side of the fairway that one must take into consideration for the second shot.  The greensite itself has bunkers fronting the green.. For the very long player it is possible to fly it to the green.  For the shorter hitter the fairway and green are sloped left so that a shot that is hit to the right of the fairway has the possibility of rolling on to the green.  If the tee shot lands in one of the bunkers or in the rough it is possible to lay up short of the right of the bunkers and have 135 to 100 yards into the green.

Number eighteen is up hill until about 100 yards short of the green.  The tee shot is relatively benign.  The fairway is wide off the tee but calls for some thought on the second shot.  If you don't go for the green you must hit the ball to at least 140 yards from the green or be forced to hit a blind shot to an udulating green.  If you go for the green, the second shot must be hit down the left side of the fairway and have a little luck if it is to role on to the green because of the slope and undulations of both the fairway and the green.  Number eighteen is controversial because of the number of long hitters who want to see the green on the second shot and dislike the possibility of bad bouces and think golf should be "fair."