Hidden Creek: Reflections on Architecture

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael Moore,

I don't equate the desire to play a golf course, to see and judge IT"S inherent architectural merits, with the desire to play the golf course in an attempt to compare it to the other courses in New Jersey, especially when he hasn't played many of the courses deemed to be its peer.

When most people play a golf course, such as Sand Hills or Bandon Trails, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes, Hidden Creek or Friar's Head. they do so for the immediacy of the golfing experience, and not to embark upon a mission of categorization or the establishment of a ranking with other golf courses in the State, especially if they haven't played the better courses in that State.

And, especially if one's observations are focused on the horizon presented by the tree line.

Mike Malone's test for "greatness" is based on several factors.

Dramatic elevation changes, such as those found at TOC, Winged Foot, Quaker Ridge, Baltusrol, Maidstone, Garden City, Westhampton, Wannamoisett and others.
And demanding "championship" tests, like Cypress Point, Maidstone, Fisher's Island, NGLA, Seminole and Chicago Golf Club.

But, if he hasn't played those courses how can you make blanket statements about their features and their quality, let alone how they compare to Hidden Creek ?

Perhaps you can assist him with his evaluation and comparison between Hidden Creek and other courses he hasn't played.

[wsmorrison]

"I played HC in order to make a judgement as to what I thought its status should be."

What a complete waste of time that endeavor is.  First of all, why show up to a club to determine its status, whatever the hell that means?  To play a golf course for comparative purposes alone accomplishes what?  And compare it to what?  Other heathland courses?  I know Mike has never played in the heathlands.  To compare it to all other NJ courses as Matt would have us think is of value?  Why would you compare it to anything it was not meant to be or to courses with different topography and soil types?  It sounds like a fellow trying to rank courses rather than studying them for their own merits.

I think it is interesting to look at a site and try and get into the architect's head.  Why did he route the way he routed?  How did he use the natural features (be they large or small)?  How is the wind taken into account?  What is the overall balance and flow of shots?  You don't need to compare it to a course off Exit 7 or wherever on the NJ Turnpike to do that!

I showed up firstly for the seminar.  I enjoy getting together with Roger and learning from the man.  In my few meetings with him, he is a fascinating man to engage in conversation.  I really wanted to meet the man Tom Paul speaks so highly of (he has high standards) and listen to the inside scoop from a man whose courses I am thrilled to play.  Bill Coore did not disappoint.  He let us into his head about what he was thinking and how the design process took place.  He was informative and generous with praise to his entire team.  If I ran an organization, I would hope to lead and inspire as he does.  With humility and gratitude to the men he works with.  Thirdly, I was very interested in learning about upkeep and growins.  Jeff covered these issues very well.

I also wanted to play the course again.  It is a course that frankly most of us need to consider over time because it is so different from what we are accustomed to.  My game varies from day to day.  Combined with different wind, different season and other factors, it was a refreshing replay that enabled me to see more yet realize I needed to study it more.  Perhaps I would have been better off to walk with Tom and Bill and just listen.  

But this brings me to the last point.  I would be remiss to mention that it was a day spent with friends, new and old.  It is a great deal of fun to spend the day in fellowship with the attendees, both in the meetings and on the course.  I enjoyed my time on the course with Bill, Garry and Lloyd as much as anything.  And the beers in the clubhouse afterwards was a joy.  Sorry I spilled a beer on you, Mike C    It is a lot more satisfying than showing up to see where a course fits into the rankings of NJ, that's for sure!

[Mike Nuzzo]

For me one of the more important architectural discussion of the day went like this...

I asked our caddy as we were walking to our first tee, the 10th; "So, is there any water on the course?"  I was already thirsty and had just noticed our playing partners had big cups of water in their carts.  The jug at the caddy shack was empty.

Our caddy replied, "We'll just in one spot, but it's way out of the way."

The first time I saw the yellow Igloo, I drank like it was liquid gold.

[mike_malone]

 Pat,

    You seem to think HC is at that highest level of courses, otherwiise I can't figure your constant questioning of my view that it is lacking  that " something" that defines greatness.

   My view of NGLA, played once in the cold and wind, was that it was a "treasure". I guess I would call it great for sure but I thought it was in a category all its own. The interesting topography along with the wind, the "homage" nature of the holes and the greens, and its place in U.S. architectural history all commend it to a lofty status. Excuse  me for saying it again, but there is a "feeling " there of specialness. It can't always be put in words.

 I used "great" and "championship" as two different categories, so it is certainly possible for a "great" course not to be a championship course, but the feeling better be special. While I have not played the same courses as you, I have played many outstanding ones, some in Ireland and others in my backyard. HC is nipping at the heels of these outstanding courses IMHO.



 I used the word "status" on purpose to avoid "rating" or "ranking". It indicates  the company a course keeps.

 Wayne,

   I would love to play those "heathland" courses, but I feel comfortable making a judgement without having been there, thank you very much.
     I played Riverwinds on this Monday; I thought HC was better.


 HamiltonB.Hearst,
     Based on your posts to this thread, I am confident that I will have no trouble picking you out in a crowd.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

You seem to think HC is at that highest level of courses, otherwiise I can't figure your constant questioning of my view that it is lacking  that " something" that defines greatness.
Your conclusion is flawed.

As is your premise as to what constitutes "Greatness"

You said "greatness" was manifested in dramatic elevation changes.   When I asked about Maidstone, TOC, GCGC, Winged Foot, Quaker Ridge, Westhampton and others, in the context of their lacking dramatic elevation changes you were unable to answer the question.

When you stated that "greatness" manifested itself in "demanding championship tests" and I asked you to reconcile that definition in the context of NGLA, Fisher's Island, Cypress Point and Chicago Golf Club, you were unable to do so.

These courses, by your own definition can't be viewed as "great", yet the golfing world recognizes them as great, therefore, you're ability to discern what is and isn't great, and the criteria for establishing what's great must be called into question.

I believe you indicated that the horizon as presented by the tops of the tree line, when viewed from the fairway, was without dramatic differences, ignoring the fact that the horizon of almost every forest or established woods merges into a flat horizon when viewed from 60 or so feet below the canopy.

I don't mind critical anaylysis of Hidden Creek or any other golf course provided it has a factual or reasoned basis.  
To date you've offered neither, and that's what triggered my questions, which you were unable to answer.

If you asked me to be critical of a given hole or holes, I'd offer an item by item list, not some vague reference to a phantom tree line.

Constructive criticism is good, without it progress and improvements would be impossible.[/color]

My view of NGLA, played once in the cold and wind, was that it was a "treasure". I guess I would call it great for sure but I thought it was in a category all its own. The interesting topography along with the wind, the "homage" nature of the holes and the greens,

As a highly manufactured golf course I don't see the "homage" to nature aspect of the golf course that you viewed on that cold, windy day.

What, green sites and tees seemed natural to you ?
[/color]

and its place in U.S. architectural history all commend it to a lofty status.

Does this mean that you value the opinions of others above your own ?[/color]

Excuse  me for saying it again, but there is a "feeling " there of specialness. It can't always be put in words.
How did that feeling manifest itself ?[/color]

I used "great" and "championship" as two different categories, so it is certainly possible for a "great" course not to be a championship course, but the feeling better be special. While I have not played the same courses as you, I have played many outstanding ones, some in Ireland and others in my backyard. HC is nipping at the heels of these outstanding courses IMHO.

Hidden Creek was never intended to be a "championship" golf course, in the context that length is perceived by many as the criterion for "championship" status.

As to great, I would think that any golf course that's ranked or perceived to be in the top 500 might be viewed as great.

I once heard a member of Seminole talking to some people about Seminole, which I view as a great golf course, but not a "championship" test unless the wind is "up" and the greens firm and fast.   As the other fellows were extolling the virtues of Seminole, this member looked at me and said, "it sure is great, but, it's not National"

So, what is "great" ?  What constitutes a "great" golf course ?
It's not length.  There are lots of long courses that lack character.

Do I think Hidden Creek is a "great" golf course ?
Yes, I do.
Do I think it's Cypress Point, Shinnecock, NGLA, Sand Hills, ANGC or Seminole ?  No, I don't, but, that doesn't disqualify it from being great.

I also think Pebble Beach is a great course and a championship test.  Too many others are blinded by the price tag and thus, can't see the architecture or feel the wind you love.[/color]

I used the word "status" on purpose to avoid "rating" or "ranking". It indicates  the company a course keeps.
In the U.S. what other heathland courses are in HC's company ?

Are Garden City and NGLA in the same company ?
Or, are they RADICALLY different ?[/color]

Wayne,

I would love to play those "heathland" courses, but I feel comfortable making a judgement without having been there, thank you very much.

Wayne, that should tell you everything you need to know.[/color]

I played Riverwinds on this Monday; I thought HC was better.


HamiltonB.Hearst,

Based on your posts to this thread, I am confident that I will have no trouble picking you out in a crowd.

I wish someone would point him out to me.

I've been accused of being him or his alter ego, so if there's a Hamilton B Hearst sighting, please let me know.  
[/color]

[blasbe1]

It sounds like a fellow trying to rank courses rather than studying them for their own merits.

Wayne,

While I'd like to agree with you and say that Pacific Dunes remains, independently, superior to what I've played, I'd lie in two instances.  

First, get over the fact that courses are not separate living things but are rather constructs in the golfing mind,

Then, you may be able to accept the fact that one course is or isn't inherently better than another.

Bottom line here, Cypress has one great hole, Pine Valley is over -run with trees and ANGL is only open three months a year .  . . and the rest is Anglo-Birth Priviledge . .. so what the Fuck are  we actually discussing anyway?

If it's not all "vis-a-vis" then I'm missing something . . .

And, btw, it ain't HC!    

[TEPaul]

"I guess a corollary to Tom P's big world theory would be that architecture is 1000% comparative for some, and one helluva lot less for others.
Count me as an other."

GeorgeP:

You are a gentleman and a scholar and a very discriminating man with excellent taste and the type of disposition one could take anywhere!  

Matt Ward obviously feels that the quality of any course can only be determined by comparing it to all other golf courses. That is one man's opinion, and none of us should try to convince him otherwise. If Mike Malone agrees with that then they are of common mind, and we should not try to convince Mayday otherwise either. (Although I do not believe we should try to convince either of them they are wrong in their own opinions, I see nothing wrong at all with calling Matt Ward a low-living trogydyte idiot of massive proportions or telling Mayday Malone he should be pummeled into a bloody pulp by Wayne and I every Friday night in the inside of a booth in a local diner! I'm sure both of them can figure out how to take the ribbing!).

Others obviously feel differently about how to analyze a golf course---one like Hidden Creek in the case of this thread. It offers golfers different things and different kinds of little challenges than some of the ones Matt Ward mentions in comparison. That's the strength and perhaps even the essence of all golf course architecture and thank God the likes of C&C understand that as well as they do. It's not for Matt Ward to tell others they are wrong about their own opinions.

I would like to play PVGC one day, Merion the next, Forsgate the next, NGLA the next, Shinnecock, Maidstone, Riviera, Seminole, Cypress Point, GCGC, ANGC, Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Myopia, Pinehurst #2, HVGC, even Fernandina Beach Municipal and Ireland's little screaming fast Mallow, Friar's Head the next and Hidden Creek the day after that and at the end of those days I believe I would have more admiration for the fascinating spectrum that good golf course architecture can be then if I'd played any single one of the above every day of that span.

It appears you and I feel somewhat the same way. If Matt Ward and Mike Malone look at it differently---no problem at all---golf and golf architecture is a great Big World and there really is room in it for everyone----and everyone's particular opinions!  

Frankly, I've never known a golf course anywhere that appealed tremendously to all golfers to approximately the same degree---not TOC, ANGC, Pebble, Shinnecock, Pinehurst #2, RCD, NGLA, Merion East etc, etc, etc.

Interestingly, the one that apparently appeals to the largest majority of all golfers the most seems to be the very unique and undeniably very beautiful CPC. This interesting fact alone apparently inspired Alister MacKenzie to remark;

"My God, what did I do wrong?"


 

[mike_malone]

 Pat,
     I give up. Even when you take my words and break them up into little segments, you still must not be "reading" them.

  One last time----TOC HAS WIND---that is the distinguishing characteristic. I don't want to convince you;I just want you to read it.

   You want a simple example----

    "HOMAGE" NATURE not "homage to nature "as regards NGLA. This a reference to the holes being modeled after the greats of the British Isles.

[wsmorrison]

"While I'd like to agree with you and say that Pacific Dunes remains, independently, superior to what I've played, I'd lie in two instances. "

You must have me mistaken for another.  I have never been to Pacific Dunes  and have never commented about it.

"First, get over the fact that courses are not separate living things but are rather constructs in the golfing mind,"

I don't like the tone of this statement and I certainly don't know where its coming from.  If you are referring to my position that a golf course can be considered on its own merits, I believe this is true given a certain baseline of understanding.  We had insights to that understanding from the owner and the architect; how wonderful that is and I thank Pat and the participants for sharing these viewpoints with us.  I don't really care what Matt or Mike or you do with your own time or energies, its a free world and I'm OK with that.  But I sure am free to express my opinion on the merits of their analysis and, in my opinion, flawed processes.

"Then, you may be able to accept the fact that one course is or isn't inherently better than another."

What are you talking about?  I'm of the position that it is a waste of time comparing the "status" or rankings of courses.  Where have I demonstrated an inability to accept a fact of that nature?  Again, you seem off the mark and a bit beligerent.  

"Bottom line here, Cypress has one great hole, Pine Valley is over -run with trees and ANGL is only open three months a year .  . . and the rest is Anglo-Birth Priviledge . .. so what the **** are  we actually discussing anyway? "

Now you really are losing me, or rather you are losing it.  Cypress has one great hole?  I've never been there, but from Geoff's book it sure likes you've got that wrong.  Pine Valley is over-run with trees?  There sure are trees clogging some interesting angles and covering up some bunker fields and mounds that should be in play.  Do you know some specific examples that I am referring to?  Or are you just making a generalization without really knowing what you're talking about?  That course is great regardless of your snipe.  What does it matter how long Augusta is open?  You're facts are wrong in any case.  As far as the "Angol-Birth Priviledge," I have  no idea as to whether or not you've been somehow subjected to prejudice.  I'm no blue blood and I've been treated exceptionally everywhere I go.   I suspect it is more closely correlated to the  behavior and presentation I make than my gene pool.
 

"If it's not all "vis-a-vis" then I'm missing something . . . "

You are missing something; common sense and courtesy.

[Jim_Coleman]

   I suppose I'm free just to not read this drivel. But please, can't we just end this thread!  

[mike_malone]

 Go play golf; don't let a little rain stop you!

[George Pazin]

I think Augusta is closed 3 or 4 months a year, not open.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Malone,

TOC DOESN"T ALWAYS HAVE WIND.

NEITHER DOES SEMINOLE, GARDEN CITY, MAIDSTONE AND WESTHAMPTON.

And, by the way, Hidden Creek tends to get a good breeze, like many of the above courses,  year round.

[mike_malone]

 Pat,
    Thanks for that info. I thought the wind always blew in Scotland. I guess you learn something new every day.

[Eric Pevoto]

Hidden Creek Topo


I posted this for all the mountain goats out there who think HC is flat.  Front nine is on the left, back nine right.  Roughly 50 ft. of elevation change on the property (5 ft contour intervals).  There's not a lot of net change, but there is PLENTY of micro-contour.

Not to compare the quality of courses , but if you go to my webpage www.ericpevoto.com you can see a few others, too.  Go to "Topographical Comparison..." under Photo Gallery (sorry I couldn't give a direct link).

[TEPaul]

Jeeesus, Eric, I've never seen that topo stick routing of Hidden Creek before. That's remarkable. Do you know what that stick routing looks like if you squint your eyes a certain way, turn your head to the right a bit---all in a Rhorshach test sort of way, of course?

It looks like a baby Ichtasorious Rex that's about 20 minutes old kneeling on its little knees with its head about 2 inched from the ground about to puke!

I'm gonna have to talk to Bill Coore about this. I knew he was creative but I didn't know he was that creative.

[Eric Pevoto]

Tom,

You can ask Bill, but he won't know what you're talking about.  I came up with that one on my own (with the help of www.topozone and MS Paint)!

[Don Herdrich]

If all of you love HC, wait till you see Old Sandwich!  It is in the Shinnecock/Friars Head class. C&C did a great job in Plymouth also.........

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeeesus, Eric, I've never seen that topo stick routing of Hidden Creek before. That's remarkable. Do you know what that stick routing looks like if you squint your eyes a certain way, turn your head to the right a bit---all in a Rhorshach test sort of way, of course?

It looks like a baby Ichtasorious Rex that's about 20 minutes old kneeling on its little knees with its head about 2 inched from the ground about to puke!

I'm gonna have to talk to Bill Coore about this. I knew he was creative but I didn't know he was that creative.

Actually, Tom, it's a little more than that!  

If you look at the lower right quadrant, you can see that C&C have clearly spelled out "EGG", a quasi-symbolic Muirheadian reference to the very origins of the game...meaning that not only is Hidden Creek paying homage to the early Heathland courses, but even before then to probably the time of the Roman Empire when slaves were used as caddies and losing at match play often meant subsequent death in the Coliseum.

I knew they were looking to create the "classic wide scoring spectrum test of a great hole" on most of the holes at HC, but I didn't realize the lengths they'd go to achieve this result.

Also, if you read the map backwards, it spells "GGE", which is actually an ancient Latin abbreviation, essentially meaning, "Good, GREATER, EXCELLUS", which in Roman times meant, "Don't even dare compare this golf course to any other!"  

[TEPaul]

Eric:

Oh, I see. Nevertheless, Bill Coore is a very smart fellow and you can never be too sure what he doesn't know. It would not surprise me at all if he knows practically everything there is to know about Ichtasorious Rexes that are 20 minutes old on their little knees with their heads near the ground about to puke---even if he didn't draw that stick routing and you did!

But you never know. I did ask Bill Coore and Ian Dalzell at the same time on the 13th hole if they happened to know the exact definition of a "cop" bunker. Both of them looked at me at the same time like I was nuts (which I obviously am) and said;

"A what?"

I said;

"You know a "cop" bunker, a "COP" BUNKER", the architectural feature that Tom MacWood said was the primary architectural feature of the Victorian/Industrial/Dark Age era in England before Horace Hutchinson changed golf architecture through Country Life magazine in reaction to it and it's geometric kind."

Both of them looked at me like I had three heads as said;

"No idea, never heard of it."

I guess this should logically mean that Bill Coore has no real right to comment intelligently on the architecture of the heathlands. I guess I should've asked him if he learned everything he did out there from the books of Horace Hutchinson and all those back issues of Country Life magazine.

[Eric Pevoto]

I'm squinting, still can't see it.  Like a Where's Waldo type thing?

Mike, Not sure how I missed that! Could we have a sequel to the DaVinci Code?  Perhaps it's an answer to the eternal question, "Which came first..."

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

You're full of crap with that interpretation in post #175. I called Bill Coore just now about that EGG on that topo. He said it's just the lettering for EGG HARBOR TOWNSHIP NEW JERSEY but that in his opinion it looks like the baby Ichtasorious Rex is about to eat his baby little sister before she can wriggle out of her egg. It was tough back in them there days in the Heathlands before Horace Hutchinson road in on Country Life magazine and the "arts and crafts" movement and saved the entire art form of golf course architecture from cannibalizing itself.

"Like a Where's Waldo type thing? "

Eric:

Who in the hell is Waldo? Was he one of the major practioners of the Arts and Crafts Movement in the heathlands and the rest of the Golden Age?

"Perhaps it's an answer to the eternal question, "Which came first..."

Eric:

You better not being trying to say "chicken" on this particular thread on this website. I thought you did a certain amount of golf architecture research. Don't you know that the Ichtasorious Rex preceded the chicken by about 8 million years? Get your golf architectural chronology at least a little bit straight man!

[Patrick_Mucci]

If all of you love HC, wait till you see Old Sandwich!  It is in the Shinnecock/Friars Head class. C&C did a great job in Plymouth also.........

Don, I'd be interested in learning about any and all permiting obstacles they encountered and how they overcame or remediated them.

Thanks.[/color]

[TEPaul]

"If all of you love HC, wait till you see Old Sandwich!  It is in the Shinnecock/Friars Head class. C&C did a great job in Plymouth also........."

DonH:

That's very interesting and great to hear. I've never seen Old Sandwich but I did ask Bill Coore about it over and over again and he was always sort of noncommital unlike Friar's and even Hidden Creek but that's not unusual---he's a very hard man to read! I once told him I thought Easthampton was a wonderful golf course and he said; "Do you really think so?" and I said I sure do and all he said is; "We're proud of what we did there under the circumstances".

Typical Bill Coore!
 
 

[Don Herdrich]

talking with Ben and Bill they are very unassuming concerning all their work........I feel they have no real favs, all are their babies and they want to see all do well

concerning the permits for OS, I am not privy to each exact detail, but I will inquire with the man behind the project........talking with him when I was out there last year, I take it there were cranberry bogs throughout the property and very thick brush, prickers, etc.........it was no small feat to clear the land..........there is A LOT of elevation change in the property and there are the  usual rough cut bunkers everywhere......I cant wait to get back!