List of "Best Municipal Golf Courses"

[Doug Wright]

Willis Case

The best are very interesting holes, many are very mundane.

More later.  At the price, it is hard to pass up....

Willis Case? I never thought this course would ever be discussed on this website for any reason--except on a list of WORST municipal courses. What are you guys smoking?

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Bill Gayne
Several of us are interested in how Egan got involved in North Fulton.  If you remember your source to that story I would like to hear from you.  Yes, I spoke with Sam Snead once and he indicated North Fulton was a regular stop on the way to the Masters.

Bob Huntley
Yes, Encino will give you plenty of room to bang away but every green site is similar and boring.  No diversity in the Sepulveda Dam Basin.

[Kirk Gill]

Willis Case? I never thought this course would ever be discussed on this website for any reason--except on a list of WORST municipal courses. What are you guys smoking?

I don't know that it's worthy of a "worst" nomination. It's probably just more a typical muni than a terrible one. Usually in poor condition, with a huge number of rounds, hard against a major highway.......

I played it hundreds of times when I was a kid. Rather than nominating it as a "best," I was just curious if anyone knew anything about how it came to be. I'll admit to liking the 9th hole............

[Wayne Freeman]

This is it for me on this thread, but yesterday I can't believe I forgot to mention what may be the best muni in the country behind Bethpage-  Harding Park in S.F.  They did an outstanding job with the remake of this course and it is so good-  with some of the best finishing holes you'll ever see. The 18th hole from the back tee is about 475, uphill dogleg left over a ravine and it is spectacular.  There is going to be a tour event there in Sept. Added to Lake Merced, O Club, and SFGC, you've got a gouping of 4 courses that may not have an equal anywhere in the country.  

[Bill Gayne]

Lynn, unfortunately it's been a long time and I don't remember the name of the person who told me. All I remember is the story. I also had heard the stories of Sam Snead playing the course which is confirmed by your conversations with Snead.

[les_claytor]

One of my favorite topics.  If "muni" is defined by city owned, the "Best" I'm aware of are probably Harding and Torrey Pines.

Some obscure and really fun courses, perhaps a more interesting topic, off the top of my head:

Asheville Muni
Charleston Muni
Lincoln Park / Sharp Park / Flemming / Glenneagles Int'l, SF
Highland Park, Cleveland
Bacon Park (Ross holes mixed up), Savanah
Griffith and Harding Park,  LA

Many more I can't remember until I fully wake up.  I'm looking forward to playing the Ross muni's in Jacksonville and New Smyrna Beach!

[Buck Wolter]

The Best Municipal should be at least 50 years old, it should  be in an urban setting, it should always be busy but you should never have to camp out to play it, it should have no debt, it should not look like a country club either in the clubhouse or the conditioning, it should be well-marshalled, it should support junior golf, it should have a good practice facility, it should not be a cash-cow for local governement or a drain on the taxpayers.

The best I've seen is Waveland in Des Moines, good golf course but never will host a US Open. I would say Forest Park in St. Louis but it's been 'upscaled' recently.

[THuckaby2]

I like Lynn's SoCal list - they definintely do have some worthwhile munis down there.  And oh how I did once frequent them... especially the Griffith Park courses... but seeing a mention of Balboa and Encino REALLY warms the heart... god I spent way too many hours at each of those.  From age 12-17 those were my home courses, without a doubt.

I'd love to go back and see if anything has changed... we're talking about 25 years now since I've played there... very scary.

Misty watered colored memories... of what a teenage dork I was.....

 

BTW, the list of decent munis here in the Bay Area is....

[this space intentionally left blank.]

Oh, I guess that's an exaggeration.  Santa Clara Muni has some interest, Santa Teresa is OK, there are some others.  But there's really nothing to write much about... including the SF courses, which have been discussed many times.

TH

[SB]

Lynn -

The story I've heard on a couple occasions about North Fulton is that there were big money matches there the week before the masters with all of the big players.  I've heard stories both ways as to whether or not there any sort of official gathering.  This is the first I've heard, though, of an Egan connection.

[Cliff Hamm]

Buck...Triggs in Providence gets close to your criteria.  Donald Ross course in the city, rough around the edges, always busy never swamped, great layout...no practice facility and as far as being a cash cow this is Rhode Island and Providence is the home of ex-mayor now prison inmate Buddy Cianci.

[A.G._Crockett]

Bill Gayne
Several of us are interested in how Egan got involved in North Fulton.  If you remember your source to that story I would like to hear from you.  Yes, I spoke with Sam Snead once and he indicated North Fulton was a regular stop on the way to the Masters.

Bob Huntley
Yes, Encino will give you plenty of room to bang away but every green site is similar and boring.  No diversity in the Sepulveda Dam Basin.

Lynn,
I have heard that same story about Egan's involvement and the money angle, but have no idea where to track it down.  I have some time Friday and will see what I can find.

[Doug Wright]

However there are at least 5 hles of note, I'll have to check a card to remember the exact numbers, it's been over 5 years.

BillV/Redanman,

I'm very curious which 5 holes at Willis Case you think are noteworthy. It will help me understand your architectural taste (or lack thereof... ) I haven't been there in more than 5 years myself, but I sure don't recall anything noteworthy.

On the other hand, Wellshire GC has really grown on me. Underneath the negligence and neglect, there are some really fine Ross features there, some outstanding greens and greensites...

Best,

[A.G._Crockett]

Bill Gayne
Several of us are interested in how Egan got involved in North Fulton.  If you remember your source to that story I would like to hear from you.  Yes, I spoke with Sam Snead once and he indicated North Fulton was a regular stop on the way to the Masters.

Bob Huntley
Yes, Encino will give you plenty of room to bang away but every green site is similar and boring.  No diversity in the Sepulveda Dam Basin.

Lynn,
This is a link to a history of Georgia golf courses done by the Atlanta Historical Society in conjunction with a display they did on Bobby Jones several years ago.
http://www.bobbyjonesgolfexhibit.com/GolfClubs/golfclubs_yearlist.html

It lists Chandler Egan as the GCA for North Fulton, and 1937 as the construction date.  As far as I can tell, this is a reasonably well-researched list, with the exception of some renovations that don't list the original GCA but instead the GCA that did the newer work.
If you look at the Chastain Conservancy website (Chastain Park is the larger park that the course is within), it lists the course as being designed by Walter Hagen, of all people, with help from Bobby Jones.  I have never heard that, and give it no credence.    The course apparently hosted the Publinks tournament in 1948, among other distinctions.  As I said in the previous post from last night, I've heard the same story Bill Gayne posted about the financial angle of Egan's involvement, and if I ever come across more info, I'll post it.

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm surprised no one has spoken up about the NYC munis because despite their sometimes threadbare condition, there is some cool architecture at many of them.

The best include the Split Rock course at Pelham/Split Rock (Geoff C.'s fav), Dyker Beach, LaTourette, Forest Park, Marine Park and my favorite for almost purely historical reasons, Van Cortlandt Park.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

A G Crockett

Thanks for checking and your interest.  I wouldn't put too much credence in that list.  For example the Chastain Conservancy has an aerial of North Fulton Golf Course from 1934.  They and I don't believe anything about Walter Hagen's involvement, other than he played there.  The fact is this seems to be the only course Chandler Egan did outside of the Northwest.  Bobby Jones and Egan were good friends.  According to Bob Crosby, Jones took a train across the country to attend Egan's funeral.  Egan played in the Masters.  Egan and Mackenzie had a brief partnership and so Egan would have had a keen interest in Augusta's design.  Being in the depression there seems to be a connection of Jones directing the City of Atlanta to hire Egan, either to help his friend, or a way of repaying Mackenzie for Augusta's work.  None of us can find any written connection to confirm this.  In any event, the City of Atlanta has a gem, doesn't know it or care.  The Chastain Conservancy recognizes it and will fight to preserve it.  Craig Disher got me a good aerial from 1949 which probably depicts the course in its prime.  Many more and good bunkers existed at that time.  The amazing thing is a restoration here would be pretty simple.  Simple to accomplish, but getting interest in Atlanta is anything but simple.

[A.G._Crockett]

Lynn,
I have played N. Fulton many times, though not in a number of years.  Everybody agrees that it is a very good layout, but there can't be many courses anywhere that get more play and have a lower maintenance budget.  Leasing the city courses to American Golf a number of years ago helped some, but only some.  Well-conditioned, it would be the equal of almost any muni anywhere.  As you say, given the nature of Atlanta politics at this time, I don't see that happening.

[Bill Gayne]

A G,

I played the course a good bit in the early 90s and I agree completely with your assessment. The 13-15 stretch of holes was excellent and I always thought that 17 and 18 made very good finishing holes. However the conditioning and pace of play could be brutal. Also portions of the front nine didn't drain very well. At that time the public golf options around Atlanta was limited and there were always some very interesting characters hanging out. I hope to get back there some day for nothing more than sentimental reasons.

Bill

[Mike_Cirba]

Completely agree with all of the comments on North Fulton.

It's a gem architecturally and sad that it can't be brought up to snuff.

[les_claytor]

Thought of a few more good muni's:

Swope Park, Kansas City / Original Tillie

Lost Nation, Cleveland area / reportedly Alison?

Tup Holmes, Atlanta : it's a mut but, its got enough quirky holes and a few good ones to endear itself

I really like the old quirky courses that take you back in time.  I love munis set in a park like setting with perimeter housing.  Asheville, Savannah, Shreveport, Atlanta, and Minnesota all core munis with neat war time houses on the perimeter.

[Matthew MacKay]

I don't think anyone has noted George Wright Muni in Boston.  Donald Ross design routed through typically rugged New England terrain.

Here in Toronto there is Lakeview (across the road from Toronto Golf), a Herbert Strong design with one of the best sets of greens I've seen in Canada.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Matt,

I continue to kick myself, because I haven't visited Lakeview yet! I've been to Toronto Golf, right across the street, a few times and didn't head over to Lakeview. Damn. Next time I'm in Toronto, that's my first stop.

Question: I've heard that a few people have made some significant changes to Lakeview. How many of Strong's green surfaces are left? How many would you guess, anyway?

[Coral_Ridge]

Golf Digest began publishing the "Top 50" Public courses in March 1981.  Contrasting the rankings of public golf to private golf back then substituted "playability" for "resistance to scoring."  Also the stated purpose of the ranking was to identify the best courses available to the golfing public.  To qualify, a course had to be 1) publicly owned or 2) privately owned and operated on a daily-fee basis primarily for nearby residents.  Disqualified were golf courses at resort hotels, courses operated by the military, colleges, and those courses that want to attract the traveling golfer.  

These criteria developed in the early '80's did well, but with the advent of expensive daily fee public courses, the municipal course got left behind since the money was not there to keep up.  Does anyone know if Golf Digest continues to rank "America's Best Public Courses" ?   It appears that the current rankings called "America's 100 Greatest Public Courses", includes the great resort golf courses like Pebble Beach, Pacific Dunes, Whistling Straits, and Pinehurst. Not exactly pure public golf.  

It would really be nice if there were a municipal list of the top 50 in the country.  Many good ones have been mentioned here.  What if GCA made their own list and submitted it as the "list"?

[astavrides]

It would really be nice if there were a municipal list of the top 50 in the country.  Many good ones have been mentioned here.  What if GCA made their own list and submitted it as the "list"?

Jon,
I too would like to see such a list.  I imagine it would be hard for any one person to do since people generally do not go out of their way to travel to see a muni.  However, I, or preferably you, could take on such a task, guessing about courses we havent been to based on what we have heard. This would provide a starting point.   I'm sure other people would be happy to provide corrections and we might be able to get a reasonably consensual list.

[Brad Tufts]

A few additions:

Shennecossett in CT....Ross, with additions and renovation by Mungeam

Franklin Park in Boston....one of the first daily fee courses in the country.  It was designed by Willie Campbell, the first pro, in the late 19th century, and was later remodeled by Ross.  Bobby Jones used to practice here while attending Harvard.  The course was resurrected in the early 80s as it lay closed and overgrown, and now has much improved conditions, a beautiful new clubhouse, and a thriving junior program on the edge of one of the rougher parts of the city.

George Wright by Ross...on the comeback trail, if polished it would rank among the best layouts in the city, public or private

President's in Quincy, MA...by George Wright and Wayne Stiles.  A very short, quirky course with severe greens, and conditions better than ever.

Also Captains (36) and Dennis Highlands/Pines (36) on the Cape are owned by their respective towns, and offer resident memberships for something like $500/yr.  They are very good courses, but towards upscale, as Cape prices mid-summer push green fees to $50+.

[Cliff Hamm]

While we're on New England:

Triggs - classic Ross course in Providence.  Wonderful layout could use some TLC but fairways and greens are fine.  Plays tough and longer than yardage.

Acushnet River Valley in Acushnet, Ma.  Underated muni.  Bargain for the area - greens fees around $30.  Always excellent condition.  Brian Silva design