Renovations at Seawane/Holes 7 -9

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Because of the different bunker style.

[Craig Disher]

Tom,
 Pomonok was an Emmet course built in 1921, 3 years before Tull joined him (according to C&W). The bunkers in this aerial (1938 - I'm making the assumtion that the course wasn't significantly altered since it was built) show a free-form style similar to those at Seawane.

If there's no evidence that Tull worked at Pomonok after it was built, it seems to me that the bunker style you attribute to Tull's influence might already have been Emmet's in the early 20s.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Because of the different bunker style.

And what was the difference in their bunker styles ?

Was Emmett so architecturally limited that he was confined to one style ?

If Seawane was opened in 1927 and Tull joined Emmett in 1924, your theory would be that in the short period of 18 months or so, Emmett totally changed his philosophy on bunker design to conform to that of Tull's, despite Emmett's considerable, long established, success and large body of work prior to 1924-7 ?

The conclusions you jump to are WILD, especially when you consider your lack of specific, supporting documentation.[/color]

[blasbe1]

What about the land to the right of # 16, between the water and the road ?

Homes, bulkheaded on the canal and homes across the street on Reynolds Channel.  I would have loved to stand on 16 tee when this aerial was taken, the dunes with water in the distance would have been an awesome sight.  Plus I'm sure the wind would have been a bigger factor.  

Same thing happened across the canal on #13, that is now the village of East Rockaway.  

If I only had a time machine . . .

[T_MacWood]

Craig
Like I've said before...I'm no Emmet expert. Do you disagree with Daniel Wexler's assesment that Emmet's bunkering style changed after Tull became more involved in the firms designs?

Pat
Does having a unique style imply you are architecturally limited? Rees Jones has a unique style....ah, never mind.

[Craig Disher]

Tom,
Daniel certainly has more information than I do to support that view. I'm only speculating based on aerials from the late 30s that I've seen - and what I've seen of Tull's solo work.

Emmet's work that pre-dates Tull's joining him in 1924 does show an evolution in style. One of the earliest I've seen is Cherry Valley (1916). The bunkers there look very primitive - long, thin,  and in some cases perpindicular to the line of play.  But moving ahead to Rockaway HC (1919) and Old Westbury, the style becomes similar to Seawane and Pomonok (1921) with the curlicue outlines, natural shapes and frequent use of mounding within the bunkers. His work at Nassau (1927 with Tull assisting) looks like a natural extension of his earlier bunker work done before Tull.




There are two Tull courses around DC built in the eary 50s. I can't see any similarity between them and any of the Emmet/Tull courses. Perhaps Tull moved away from the Emmet style in the 50s towards something "modern." But I'd feel more confident that he influenced Emmet if there were courses in that style that he designed on his own.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,

In the 1940 photo it looks like that area has had work done to it.

Does the club have any records/documents/photos that you could review ?

Tom MacWood,

You didn't answer the question.
And again atttempt to divert the focus by bringing up Rees Jones.
How can you conclude the Seawane is Tull's work and not Emmett's ?

[T_MacWood]

Craig
Are those bunkers at Nassau the work of Emmet or Strong?

Pat
Seawane was designed by Emmet.

[Craig Disher]

Tom,
I believe they are Emmet's. C&W says that Strong added 3 holes in 1924. There is a 1915 drawing of Nassau in Quirin's book which shows a course very different than the one I've seen in the 1930s aerials. If C&W is right, the modifications Strong made would have been to that course and the 1930s aerials would show Emmet's course which was designed in 1927.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Craig Disher,

There are some wonderful pictures of Nassau hanging in the clubhouse, including a spectacular early aerial.  If I can get a copy I'll get it to you.

It's hard to believe how many of these great old courses went through the disfiguration process.

[T_MacWood]

Craig
Not to get off the subject, but Nassua is a golf course I've never quite figured out who did what and when. C&W says that Emmet redesigned the course (or created a new course ) in 1927. The MGA book written by Quirren says Emmet remodeled the course in 1920, and then Herbert Strong in 1925.

IYO does the last picture you posted look more like Emmet or Strong?

[TEPaul]

"Craig
Not to get off the subject, but Nassua is a golf course I've never quite figured out who did what and when."

Tom MacWood:

Maybe you haven't figured it out yet but something tells me if you happen to find some old newspaper article somewhere (that people have seen for years) that mentions one of your favorite architects was somewhere in the vicinity at some point I'm sure you will figure out who did what and when!  

[blasbe1]

In the 1940 photo it looks like that area has had work done to it.

Does the club have any records/documents/photos that you could review ?

Pat,

Do you mean the area right of 16 and right of the canal when you look at the aerial (for those who don't know the layout 16 tee is just on the lower half of the photo after crossing the road and the second shot is played over the canal.)  

This land that looks in the 1940 photo as dune washout was never, as far as I know, club property.  

I will ask around and see what I can dig up.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Tom,
Daniel certainly has more information than I do to support that view. I'm only speculating based on aerials from the late 30s that I've seen - and what I've seen of Tull's solo work.

Emmet's work that pre-dates Tull's joining him in 1924 does show an evolution in style. One of the earliest I've seen is Cherry Valley (1916). The bunkers there look very primitive - long, thin,  and in some cases perpindicular to the line of play.  But moving ahead to Rockaway HC (1919) and Old Westbury, the style becomes similar to Seawane and Pomonok (1921) with the curlicue outlines, natural shapes and frequent use of mounding within the bunkers. His work at Nassau (1927 with Tull assisting) looks like a natural extension of his earlier bunker work done before Tull.




There are two Tull courses around DC built in the eary 50s. I can't see any similarity between them and any of the Emmet/Tull courses. Perhaps Tull moved away from the Emmet style in the 50s towards something "modern." But I'd feel more confident that he influenced Emmet if there were courses in that style that he designed on his own.

Craig-

I'm not trying to divert the original intent of the post here, but stylistically, were Tull's bunkers a bit more in an amoeba shape?  That is what I seem to remember from my limited experience with Tull courses.  

Thanks!!

DRB

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,

I mean the area between the inlet that comes off of the narrow canal and the road as you look at the aerial.

It's a penisula and it looks as if some work was done or perhaps excavations were undertaken.

How is it that the club didn't acquire that property ?

[blasbe1]

Pat,

We'll have to look at it in person.

[T_MacWood]

Craig
Is there any way you can post some more images of Nassau...perhaps on its own thread? Based Pat's descritpion and your picture I'm anxious to see more.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Abandoned footpads for some of the features still remain.

I saw the photos after I had played the golf course.
I would like to review them again, and then tour the golf course to search for more remnants.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
I took a very quick look around Nassau this summer...it appears trees have taken over as well. It also seemed to be somewhat flat from my quick look...which might explain the agressive bunkering scheme.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

It's got some nice rollilng terrain with elevation changes.

The picture in the ante room in the locker area is eye opening.

[blasbe1]

Jason
Who is the designer (or designers) of your new course? Would it be a mistake for a student of golf architecture to come to Seawane to see the work of Devereux Emmet?

The consulting architect is Kay, not sure if that's your question.
Much of the actual product on the ground has been a collaberation of sorts as the boys were digging in the dirt.

. . .
 

In light of our recent education from Bill Coore, I've revived an old post to state:

it's now evident to me that much GCA on all levels occurs by the guys pushing the dirt around and it was quite impressive to hear Bill say as much re: C&C projects.  These un-named shapers are the guts of GCA, I've been fortunate to meet one through our project at Seawane.