can a course be good without doglegs?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I was in South Carolina this past week and played the Reserve at Woodside Plantation in Aiken.  The greensites were ok but overall the course was disappointing for a number of reasons.  One of the more interesting aspects of the design was that there really were no doglegs.  Every hole was essentially straight.  There were some turns but no real doglegs.
Can a course be really good without doglegs?

[cary lichtenstein]

Tommy:

A similiar question was asked last week, can a curse be good without sand traps?

The answer to both is a resounding...No

Cary

[James Bennett]

I play at a course that has a 'pack of doglegs'.  The outcome is a constant variation in direction of play, and view (generally of adjacent trees  .  

Unless land is abundant, I expect it is very difficult to route a course in much more than 2 directions (up and back) without using doglegs.

However, the classic course (TOC) can be argued not to have any doglegs, although St Andrews has the width and adjacent fairways to allow a player to create their own.   And the meandering loop of land enables a slow directional variation in orientation to the wind.

[David_Elvins]

Tommy:

A similiar question was asked last week, can a course be good without sand traps?

The answer to both is a resounding...No

Cary

What about the courses on the Open Rota?  Are they no good?  Doglegs are hardly a major feature of the great British links courses, are they?

[Bill Gayne]

I've heard that the NCR CC courses have very little in the way of doglegs. I haven't seen the courses but maybe someone else can confirm. Below is the routing map for the North Course showing only three or four doglegs. It's hard to imagine a parkland course with fewer doglegs.

[wsmorrison]

It is possible, though not likely.  I have never played a course without dogleg holes.  I think the shot testing and variety that would be missing is a detriment that can be overcome, but it would seem very difficult.

[peter_p]

Firestone South? I know the 18th is a dogleg, but all I can remember is straight holes.

[Dan Kelly]

I've never played there, but I'm told that Minneapolis Golf Club is a very fine golf course.

Go to http://maps.google.com. Hit "Satellite." Enter 2001 Flag Ave S.,
Minneapolis, MN 55426. Zoom in. See if you can find anything resembling a dogleg.

[Peter Galea]

Yes. As long as there is strategy in the tee shot.
In my eyes, golf is chess, on the world's largest gameboard.
Options and execution.

[Jim Sweeney]

I've never played St. Andrew's, but from what I've seen and read the primary architectural features of the course are its bunkers, which are placed in such a way that the golfer must go around them, not just past them (unless that golfer is Tiger Woods and can fly them). From the diagrams of potential playing strategies I've seen the bunkers turn a lot of seemingly straight holes into doglegs. Or, for the price of additional risk, the golfer can play directly at the hole.

My sense is, therefore, that lack of doglegs would indicate a rather mundane course. One could take the attitude, however, that the Old Course's holes are all straight, and the bunker placement makes them interesting, but not doglegs.

So I think your question is unresolveable.

[Jimmy Muratt]

I totally agree with Jim on this one.  The proper placement of bunkers can take a straight golf hole and totally change the playing angles.  Especially centrally placed bunkers can spice things up.  Likewise, the green complexes can also do the same.  For example, a dead straight 400 par 4 that plays to a greensite with a penal bunker on the left side of the green and a green that slopes heavily from right to left is obviously better approached from the right hand side.  

Sometimes a straight hole can lull you into a false sense of security.  That's why they can often be the most interesting, the strategic decisions are less obvious.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Wouldn't a course without doglegs play longer than the scorecard indicates?  Generally you can expect to cut one corner or two on a normal doglegged course.
Pasatiempo doesn't have much in the way of doglegs.
Is that in part why it plays longer than the card?

[SPDB]

YES.

At some point doglegs replaced internal hazards as the obstacle of choice. Its been all down hill ever since.

Myopia has no doglegs, and I happen to think its a fine course.

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

A number of doglegs on Flynn courses need to be played on the outside, thus the playing yardage is greater than the card yardage.  Rolling Green has 4 holes like this (2,5,12 and 18).  In Flynn's day when these were 50 + yard wide fairways, the added distance was fairly significant.  The only doglegs you could cut the corner on and be rewarded are 15 and 17.

[Jason Topp]

I've never played there, but I'm told that Minneapolis Golf Club is a very fine golf course.

Go to http://maps.google.com. Hit "Satellite." Enter 2001 Flag Ave S.,
Minneapolis, MN 55426. Zoom in. See if you can find anything resembling a dogleg.

I can confirm Minneapolis really does not have a dogleg and it is a very good course.

[Johnny_Browne]

Many of the links courses in UK play as doglegs even though they look straight on a map - take Co Down as an example where the line off the tee and essentially how straight a hole plays depends on both the wind direction and which tee you are off - many people (myself included for a year or two) do not realise this and end up hitting what they consider as good drives which end up running out of fairway and in the rough. Examples would be the 6th 8th and 9th.
Johnny B

[Tommy Williamsen]

The Old Course definitely has doglegs.  They just are not so visible.  It is possible to go straight at the hole it is, however, inadvisable.  This is true of the other links Courses I have played.  The courses with great dunes demand a player to wend their way around, through, or over the dunes.
Firestone South, not one of my favorites . does have doglegs, as does Minn. GC.  Most, however, are just more subtle.  NCR North has always been considered the weak sister of the two courses.


The Reserve at Woodside Plantation is a Steve Nicklaus.  Iplayed it with a friend who knows little about golf course architecture and cares less.  Even he made the comment about a lack of doglegs and that the course because of it was essentially boring.

[Jay Cox]

The Old Course definitely has doglegs.  They just are not so visible.  It is possible to go straight at the hole it is, however, inadvisable.  

If you define a dogleg as "any hole where the best possible tee shot is not directly at the hole," then of course no course can be great without doglegs.  The only possible tee shot strategy on such a course would be how much club to hit to minimize the likelihood of hitting into flanking hazards or to leave the optimal length for the next shot.

I'm not sure if any such courses actually exist.  Even the most strategically boring golf course in my acquaitance (Wayland CC, in the Boston suburbs) has a few doglegs -- if no reason to ever hit it anywhere but right down the middle.  

It's harder than it would seem to come up with an accurate definition of dogleg.  A hole cannot become a dogleg simply because a shot aimed directly at the hole does not end up in the fairway, even if you put in a qualifier regarding a shot "of expected length" to deal with the problem of forced carries.  This definition would make holes with central hazards in the landing area "doglegs" -- even if they were "doglegs left or right at your choosing."   On the other hand, a hole must be able to be a dogleg even if a straight shot directly at the hole is possible -- or else many cuttable doglegs would cease to be doglegs.  I think the best definition has to be in terms of visuals:  a hole is a dogleg if the natural line of site for any full shot is (substantially) away from a direct line to the hole.  

Even under this definition, I think St. Andrews does have doglegs - the 2nd, the 7th, the 14th, and the 17th.  However, I also think (agreeing with SPDB) that a great golf course could exist with no doglegs under this defintion -- and an abundance of central hazards.

[rgkeller]

I was in South Carolina this past week and played the Reserve at Woodside Plantation in Aiken.  The greensites were ok but overall the course was disappointing for a number of reasons.  One of the more interesting aspects of the design was that there really were no doglegs.  Every hole was essentially straight.  There were some turns but no real doglegs.
Can a course be really good without doglegs?

Well, Garden City is pretty good.

[A_Clay_Man]

The definitive answer then is ... Why not?

[mike_malone]

 Variety is the best idea. So, some doglegs are needed. But, I think more than 3-4 are too many. The options are more limited than on non-doglegs.

   Indian Creek shows Flynn's ideas done from scratch. He created one dogleg by the use of water and a couple of others with bunkers and trees. Just enough to break up the flow.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Depends on your definiton of a dogleg.  One might say tee to
center of fairway LZ to center of green to test such and then
define your minimum angle (>10 degrees?).

Firestone South? I know the 18th is a dogleg, but all I can
remember is straight holes.

Besides #18 (which doesn't bend much), I see #2, #3, and
#13 as definites.  #16 and even #8 bend a wee bit.

Myopia has no doglegs, and I happen to think its a fine course.

Depends on your definition of dogleg.  If 60-90 degrees is
your defintion, then yes.  Otherwise, I see #4 and #13 as
doglegs to some degree and others might say #18 is one.  
Not sure what others might call the twisting of the fairway on
#12, but tee to LZ to LZ is almost dead straight.  #7 from
the left tee bends a little.

Well, Garden City is pretty good.

Another one that depends on your definition.  From tee to
center of LZ to center of green, I see some bend in these
holes:  #9, #13, #16, though all are fairly small, and very
slight bend to #14 and #17.  Good example of how
hazards create the interest.



Astoria is another one with almost no doglegs.  At first sight,
it looks as if there are none, but if you know the course and
can make out all of the tees, there are actually several that
bend at least a little: #1, #5, #9, #14, and #16 (and #3 is
proving my memory wrong).



These 4 courses still have nothing that bends more than
about 30 degrees, I'd guess.

Of course, I'm sure I'll be proven wrong!    

[JESII]

Question:

Does it count as a dogleg when, on an open field (no trees), the player is steered off on an angle by the features of the hole but they could (if they desire) simply hit straight at the flag and risk the consequences?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Wow!  Good discussion guys.  From the discussion it seems there are very few courses that lack doglegs.  And it is possible to design a good hole that is essentially straight.  I think then the question changes and becomes two:
1. What constitutes a dogleg?  Are the holes at the old course that demand a tacking approach doglegs?
2. Is the dogleg overused?  My home course The CC at Woodmore outside DC really only has two straight holes.