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Ken Fry

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Re:Have bunkers lost some of their architectural value ?
« Reply #75 on: January 29, 2005, 04:47:25 PM »

The President's Cup was played at Royal Melbourne a handful of years ago.  The bunkers were prepared in a unique way where the sides were left very hard and the bottoms of each bunker were "prepared."  The course played very firm and fast so if a ball was hit into a bunker, recovery was extremely difficult.  For that course at that time, that was an appropraite way to return the challenge.  Would that work at other locations?  It's not fair to expect that.

Another extreme ?
You are adept at posturing extremes.
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Oh Pat, this is an example of what works in one place may not work everywhere.....
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I would venture to say that if I took a blind survey of superintendents, that they would want to maintain their bunkers differently then they are being forced to maintain them today.
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True, and most would want to maintain them as their course and property allow....
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I brought up the PGA Tour and USGA to support YOUR point that due to their site requirments, bunkers are maintained where much of the inconsistency is removed, thereby eliminating the challenge.

Unfortunately, this is occuring at the local club level as well, and, it's an unnecessary pressure on the superintendent and a costly drain on the green budget.
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By the way, a bunker is a "prepared area of ground."  By your argument (and yes, you are making an argument) a bunker would not be preparded, thereby changing its definition with the USGA.

Ken, Ken, Ken,

Please understand the difference between the definitions and practical applications of the words "prepared", "maintained" and "groomed".

Please also understand that the word "prepared' doesn't connote a time frame, such as an hourly or daily activity.  
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Pat, I only bring up "prepared" as THE major difference between bunkers and other hazards.  Are bunkers not prepared?  Is any othe hazard?
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Ken,

The amazing thing is that some of the fellows I play with on a regular basis are high handicaps, 16-23, and with specialty clubs, bunkers, for them, aren't nearly the hazard today that they were 10-20-30-40 years ago.

Pat,

The only response I have for this is if your buddies are 16-23 handicaps and can get out of bunkers, so be it.  Apparently they're still having their problems if they're 16-23 handicaps.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2005, 04:47:54 PM by Ken Fry »

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Have bunkers lost some of their architectural value ?
« Reply #76 on: January 29, 2005, 07:31:33 PM »

Didn't Donald Ross build greens where the shape and contour made it easier to get up and down from a bunker on one side than from the grass on the other?

Could you cite some examples of where he did this ?


Pat:

First green Pinehurst #2.  See Anatomy of a Golf Course, page 61 (Donald Ross "contour[ed] the green so that the chip from the right of the green is more difficult than it appears from the fairway.  Meanwhile, the bunker shot the player was trying to avoid might have been relatively simple."  See also diagram of the hole on page 60.

I've played it and it is true.

That was one hellacious beaver.

Doug Siebert

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Re:Have bunkers lost some of their architectural value ?
« Reply #77 on: January 29, 2005, 07:43:27 PM »
I see few bogey golfers who know how to use a sand wedge properly.  They may be able to escape bunkers -- and for many of them just getting out of it and somewhere on the green on the first shot makes them happy.  But since many such golfers either hit down on it like a chip and try to hit the ball first, or hit a normal shot just aiming an inch behind the ball.  They really wouldn't notice the difference at all if you made them use a PW instead of a SW since they aren't making any use of the feature that makes a SW a SW.

They are the ones who are the happiest when you have the nicest possible and most consistent possible sand in bunkers, because the way they play their bunker shots leaves little margin for error and is very sensitive to variations in conditions.  Its for them that Nicklaus spends $50K to truck in "perfect" sand instead of using whatever can be dredged up from underneath the nearest bottomland.

A player who is good out of the sand can notice this as well.  I can adjust pretty well to varying types of sand when using my SW.  I can also play sand shots just about as well using a PW, LW or even an 8i when I'm playing out of "perfect sand" -- but give me very inconsistent sand from hole to hole and course to course and then I'm just like those bogey golfers in that I've got less margin for error and will want that SW back!

So IMHO the thing that made bunkers less of a hazard isn't an either/or question.  Both the invention of the SW and the later change in construction/maintenance practices that prioritized consistency in bunkers had an equal role.  If everyone knew how to use a SW properly, the consistency wouldn't help as much; likewise if all bunkers were consistent the SW wouldn't really be necessary.

Somewhere back in this thread someone pointed out that the LW also made bunkers less of a problem.  I hadn't really thought about it before but I guess its true.  If you can hit a high soft lob over a bunker more easily, they become less of a problem, even though you aren't using the LW for the bunker shot unless you're talking links style pot bunkers.

But the ability to use a LW itself was dependant on changes in maintenance practices.  That is, without modern manicured fairways and modern thick rough collars around greens, a LW becomes less effective.  If you tried to use it on the closely mown but thin and poor quality turf that undoubtedly surrounded most greens in the Golden Age, you'd probably be left with a lot of dicey shots from bare or cuppy lies and the LW doesn't seem as sweet as it does now when your ball sits up on the fairway like its on a tee, and either sits up nicely or can be dug out nicely when in the thick rough.  The LW is just much easier to hit in the first place (nevermind its other attributes) today than it would have been if someone had tried to introduce it in 1920.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Have bunkers lost some of their architectural value ?
« Reply #78 on: January 29, 2005, 09:00:19 PM »


MY POINT IS THAT IF A BUNKER IS TO BE AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS, NO ONE WILL GO NEAR IT, EVERYONE WILL PLAY SAFE, AND STRATEGIC INTEREST WILL BE DIMINISHED.

IF THERE IS SOME HOPE FOR RECOVERY,
THEN I AM MORE LIKELY TO TRY TO GAIN AN ADVANTAGE ON MY NEXT SHOT BY RISKING THE BUNKER.  BUT IF THE BUNKER IS ABSOLUTE DEATH, I WON'T GO NEAR IT.  AGAIN, STRATEGIC CHOICE IS ELIMINATED IF THE BUNKER IS TO BE AVOIDED "AT ALL COSTS."  THUS, PLAYERS OF LESS SKILL MAY STILL BE TEMPTED AND RISK TANGLING WITH A FEATURE THAT REQUIRES MORE SKILL, PROVIDING IT IS NOT TO BE AVOIDED "AT ALL COSTS."



There is always HOPE for recovery.
Hence, the statements conflict.

The choice, to challenge or avoid, is what creates strategy, and the results the reward or price you pay for your selection and execution.

I'm very familiar with the 1st green at PH # 2.
It holds a place near and dear to my heart for several reasons.

I think you've misread or misinterpreted the caption on the top of the diagram.

In the diagram, he didn't say that recovery from the bunker was easier then chipping from the right side, only that the cant of the green makes the shot from the DEEP bunker easier.

Since the bunker is clearly described as DEEP, and since Tom references the weaker player, I would disagree with Tom's inferences on page 61.

I"ve played the hole 40+ times, but, not more recently then 3 years ago, and, as I said, that green played a significant part in my personal golfing history, one that I'll never forget.

I'll take the chip almost every time
« Last Edit: January 29, 2005, 09:34:14 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Have bunkers lost some of their architectural value ?
« Reply #79 on: January 29, 2005, 09:22:58 PM »
Ken,

I agree that it's an example, but, it's an extreme example.
Keeping the slopes firm but the bottoms soft.

And, you're talking about doing that for just one week.

What would it cost to do it 52 weeks a year ?

Do you count putting colorants in the water to make it blue, preparing the hazard ?

Do you count inserting a liner to hold the water, preparing the hazard ?

Do you cound placing "no swimmng" signs when TEPaul is on the property, preparing the hazard ?

As to my golfing buddies, I suspect that if their bunkers games weren't so good, their handicaps would be higher.

Their problems aren't so much getting out of bunkers, they're about getting into them in the first place.

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Have bunkers lost some of their architectural value ?
« Reply #80 on: January 29, 2005, 11:55:01 PM »
Pat, you said "there is always HOPE of recovery [from a bunker]".  Not for me there isn't, if the bunker is heinous enough.  Possibly I should have said "reasonable hope for recovery" to include better players in the equation.  I think we just differ on this, with me thinking that the difficulty of the hazard being part of the risk/reward calculation.  

Some bunkers are, as you say, to be avoided at all costs, and I will always play safely away from them.  No choice there.  Others are sometimes worth risking, because of the chance for birdie.  

On the other point, the bunker at Pinehurst was for me an easier shot than being in the grass on the other side (did both on consecutive days), because of the green.  11 on the North Course at Olympia Fields is the same way.  When the pin is front left, being in the bunker on the right is waaaay better (again for me) than short-siding the green.  All I have to do is get it out, and the slope of the green will take it to the hole.  Of course, it is a very deep bunker, so I have to decide whether to risk it.  Come out to Chicago and see what I mean.  Not right now, though.   ;D ;D  

Jeff  
That was one hellacious beaver.

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Have bunkers lost some of their architectural value ?
« Reply #81 on: January 30, 2005, 09:13:22 AM »
Pat,

Now you're going to extremes.  Colorants in water?

The example at Royal Melbourne seems quite ingenious actually.  I would have to think that caring for the lowest portion of bunkers without a sandpro would actually eliminate some of the expense (remember high lip areas need to be hand raked anyway).  I'll admit I know enough about maintenance to be dangerous.  Maybe the expense of bunker upkeep and varying methods can be an issue the supers. on this sight can attest to.

If courses choose paths of extreme maintenance practices, either by owner or infamous green committee, it's an example of the uneducated makings decisions in which the supt. gets caugtht in the middle.

I haven't met TEPaul yet, but I will remember the "no swimming" comment when that day finally comes.

Beyond the cost issues, where you and I differ is you want to make the game harder (bring back stymies, work against the technology innovations, etc.) and I believe the game is hard enough.  If your buddies are 23-26 handicaps, I frankly would not want to see them at 26-28.

The problem we agree on is the conditioning of bunkers in the professional and elite ranks.  Bunkers should not be uniform and "predicatable."  These guys are good enough without eliminating all the guess work.  The reason I brought up Royal Melbourne is that could be the only time I've ever seen bunkers that eliminated "fried egg" lies, and absolutely confounded the players.  If one of the constestants got up and down, it was a major accomplishment.  Isn't that what your shooting for with your argument?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Have bunkers lost some of their architectural value ?
« Reply #82 on: January 30, 2005, 11:20:51 AM »
Jeff Goldman,

You prove my point.
You're far from an elite golfer, yet you're tellihg us that you prefer to be in bunkers.

Ken Fry,

I think the problem with bunker maintainance and the compulsion to groom them to such a degree that they become standardized, uniform and extremely consistent, is that that mindset has reached down the local level.

Many members, board and green committee members see these conditions on TV, forgetting that they only exist for one week, and then want their bunkers maintained in a similar fashion 52 weeks a year.

I've seen Sand Pros fitted with 2 X 4's and 4 X 4's such that the sand is packed and smoothed to an incredible level.
And, that's at a local country club.  For anyone to think that that practice doesn't make it easier to extracate one's ball from the bunker would be foolish.  Now, members of other clubs, seeing these conditions, make inquiries and the next thing you know, their club is doing the same thing.

Between equipment, internal reconfiguration and maintainance bunkers are being de-hazardized, they are loosing their function and architectural intent.

You'll know TEPaul when you see him.
He wears speedos at golf courses that permit shorts, wears long black socks, smokes like a fiend and has a great swing.
Once seen, the image never fades.

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Have bunkers lost some of their architectural value ?
« Reply #83 on: January 30, 2005, 11:43:25 AM »
Oh, the images running through my mind.....

Lou_Duran

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Re:Have bunkers lost some of their architectural value ?
« Reply #84 on: January 30, 2005, 01:57:59 PM »
KBM,

Perhaps part of the problem on this site is that we read way too much into what people post, coupled with the apparent fact that we often view the game from extremely varied perspectives.  Our contexts also seem to be all over the place- sometimes taking the standpoint of the best 1% of the players, and other times from that of the probably non-existent "average" golfer (who doesn't frequent this site).

Whether we like it or not, golf and golf architecture is all about tradition, convention, templates, formulas, symbols, etc.  Even the most creative aspects of your profession are heavily regulated not only by these factors, but by consumer demand, and various government entities.

What is the expression: that there are 20 or so original holes and everything else is some sort of a derivation therefrom?  Imitation being the best form of flattery, Raynor is hardly the only one who copied other holes, though perhaps he did so with a greater degree of engineering precision and much less pretense than others.

So, when you and others speak derisively about templates and being formulaic, you may wish to consider that much that is done in your profession involves just that and not a great deal of "thinking outside of the box".  From what I've been able to see in my modest experience travelling, those courses I've enjoyed the most are not the ones which seek to be different, but those which were built with great sensitivity to the surroundings.

But back to my original post where I used the bunker on the left side of the fairway at Scarlet #2 as an example.  I was not suggesting that all bunkers far away from the hole be flat and without a lip.  I am not saying that the golfer should be able to hit a club to reach the green on every or even most occasions.  My bigger point is really not too dissimaler than the objection to double hazards (e.g. a bunker protected on the green side by trees) sometimes discussed here.  Given the distance of the hole, closeness of the hazard to the line of play, and the few alternatives off the tee, it is my opinion that this type of difficulut, punitive bunker takes away from the hole rather than enhances it.

As to computer aided design vs. field work, I would agree that holding everything else equal, more field work is better than less.  On the other hand, I am sure that there are designers out there who could spend a full year on the site and do no better than others who may make the mandatory four or five site visits and do much of their work at their offices.  I would tend to believe that if one has a very fine, trained eye, that he perhaps could do without the computer.  I still have found little evidence to suggest that the ability of the architect to execute many of the shots he is designing for is not a significant factor on the quality of his work.

Finally, I agree with quite a bit of what you said on your last post.  Until the last three sentences.  I try to keep an open mind and learn from everyone, even guys like Moriarty and Naccarato.  While MacKenzie is one of my architectural heroes, I acknowledge that like Hogan, what he wrote and actually did at times was not consistent.  I put much more weight on the results and how I experience them (motives and intentions are not easily ascertained).  And while I am an advocate of hand raking, preferably by the person who last used the bunker, in the absence of rakes, I would nonetheless smooth out my deep footprints.  Particularly if it was you playing behind me.  
« Last Edit: January 30, 2005, 02:02:51 PM by Lou_Duran »

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Have bunkers lost some of their architectural value ?
« Reply #85 on: January 30, 2005, 02:08:14 PM »
Caramba!  Pat, I gave a couple of examples where it might be preferable to be in a bunker, under certain very specific circumstances, to illustrate a point Tom Doak made about Donald Ross, and now you say I "prefer to be in bunkers".  Yikes.  The best practitioners of the socratic method don't have to play around with their material.

Don't you believe in variety (this is a rhetorical question)?  That really is at the heart of this discussion.  You apparently want all bunkers to be penal enough so that "they must be avoided at all costs."  I think it depends.

Jeff
That was one hellacious beaver.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Have bunkers lost some of their architectural value ?
« Reply #86 on: January 30, 2005, 02:33:00 PM »
Jeff Goldman,

That's part of my point, that bunkers are losing their variety though homogenous or standardized maintainance practices that are creating ideal and repetitive playing surfaces in each and every bunker on the golf course.

I'm a proponent of variety as long as the rule permiting the firm placing of your feet in taking your stance is continued.

You're allowed to dig in to firmly take you stance and avoid slipping.  If you slip, it probably means that you didn't take a firm enough stance.  And, in digging in to firmly place your feet, you can determine almost everything you need to know about the general condition of the bunker soil/sand.

Remember, having the intent of avoiding them and the ability to avoid them are two different things

The best laid schemes o' mice and men gang aft agley.

Ken Fry,

When you wake up, in the middle of the night, afraid to go back to sleep, sweating and scared from the reappearance of that image, there isn't much you can do except stay up for the balance of the night.  I therefore suggest the inordinate consumption of alcohol one half hour prior to bedtime until you are image free.  This takes about six months.
If the images continue beyond that point, seek professional help.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2005, 02:44:47 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Have bunkers lost some of their architectural value ?
« Reply #87 on: January 30, 2005, 05:35:15 PM »
The Royal Melbourne President's Cup bunker presentation is the standard method of presenting bunkers year-round over much of the Melbourne sand-belt.  The side slopes of the bunkers are firm, sending the ball to the middle and flat floor of the bunker.  This results in play having to carry the slope before reaching the green.  It also is a mthod of retaining much of the thrown sand form a shot within the bunker, not onto the green.  Obviously, good drainage and favourable soils assist in this style.  From my experience, this is standard Melbourne presentation.
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Have bunkers lost some of their architectural value ?
« Reply #88 on: January 30, 2005, 06:56:55 PM »
James and Ken,

How are the upper slopes kept firm with the bottom kept soft ?

Wouldn't they dry out first and wouldn't water drain from them and flow to the bottom ?

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Have bunkers lost some of their architectural value ?
« Reply #89 on: January 30, 2005, 07:07:40 PM »
Patrick

not sure.  Certainly, the faces are periodically hand-packed as part of periodic (not frequent) maintenance.  Also, surrounding surface drainage water is kept away from the bunkers.  Melbourne winters (despite the hype) are actually quite mild.  Average monthly rain doesn't seem to exceed 4 inches on average, so severe wash aways seem to be avoided.  Being a mediterranean climate, rain mainly falls in winter, so regular summer irrigation around the greens is needed, and probably assists in keeping a level of moisture in the bunkers.

I wish I knew more of the science, but I don't.
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Have bunkers lost some of their architectural value ?
« Reply #90 on: January 30, 2005, 07:55:28 PM »
Pat,

Like I mentioned before, I know enough on the maintenance side to be dangerous.  

I'm sure the soil base of the course has a lot to do with it.  If I'm not mistaken, Royal Melbourne is built on very sandy soil, if that helps the process or not.  Those with the know would be better suited to answer that question.

My point was the event at Melbourne was a rare situation where the pros were doing what you wanted:  avoiding bunkers at almost all costs.

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Have bunkers lost some of their architectural value ?
« Reply #91 on: January 30, 2005, 08:04:38 PM »
Ken

Royal Melbourne is certainly is built on sand.

Further to your thread on pro's wanting to avoid the bukers, I wonder if the legendary firmness, slope and speed of the RM greens also made it more difficult for them to get near the pin, ie they were forced to consider their recovery strategy by the total package of the green, bunkers and surrounds strategy that was presented to them.  And, perhaps they had an alternate place to miss the green if necessary (if they chose), ie through not being bunkered left, right, front, back and everywhere else, they could elect a different 'safe play' to that available on many tour events!!

So, perhaps the issue is wider than just the bunkers architectural merit, it is the combined package of the whole green complex.  Firm and fast appears again. ;)
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)