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Jim Roth

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Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« on: June 12, 2024, 08:12:33 AM »
“When Donald Ross did this golf course and made the greens this severe, I don’t think he intended it to be running at 13 on the stimpmeter,’’ Woods said, referring to the device that measures green speeds.



most of us here know the fallacy of his comment, but I'm curious to see how the broadcasters discuss Donald Ross this week as it relates to "turtleback greens"

Thomas Dai

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2024, 09:32:18 AM »
Who was it who said “Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.”?
Atb

Bruce Katona

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2024, 09:43:41 AM »
As JN was once quoted (I paraphrase) " I didn't have to worry about beating half the field that complained about how hard the course was set-up" - referring to The Annual Defense of Par staged by the USGA.

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2024, 09:47:07 AM »
When he designed the greens weren't they made of sand?  At least for the first decade or so.

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2024, 09:57:17 AM »
As JN was once quoted (I paraphrase) " I didn't have to worry about beating half the field that complained about how hard the course was set-up" - referring to The Annual Defense of Par staged by the USGA.
I don't think that Tiger's comment is necessarily what Nicklaus had in mind when he said that, and I doubt there are very many in the field that don't share Tiger's opinion anyway, spoken out loud or not. 

That aside, I'm not sure Woods is somebody that Scheffler and the other favorites would consider a likely contender anyway.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2024, 10:05:21 AM »
When he designed the greens weren't they made of sand?  At least for the first decade or so.

Yes, and at other times I believe they were both common Bermuda and Bent.  None of which roll like current Bermuda hybrids in June. 


It's worth remembering, too, that the super at #2 can make his greens as fast as he wants to this week; they'll aerate soon after anyway.

FWIW, when I played #2, with the greens running probably around 10, I had the thought all thru the round of, "How in the world do the pros play these greens?"   
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Kalen Braley

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2024, 10:45:23 AM »
I think his statement still stands despite the "who or when" they came into their current form.

Playing those greens at 13-14 on the stimp is beyond absurd...

P.S. Golf channel last night had a segment on effective green size taking into account the sloped areas where a ball wouldn't come to rest...and despite listed sizes of 5-6k at least a few were under 2k sq feet, with at least one under 1k.  Makes Pebble's greens look like TOC
« Last Edit: June 12, 2024, 10:47:34 AM by Kalen Braley »

Jason Thurman

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2024, 10:54:56 AM »
Well, Ross DID design the grassed greens at No. 2 in the 1935 renovation.


Many know that the "turtleback" quality of the greens was created through years of topdressing. But that only accounts for 18 inches or so of height on the surfaces themselves. It didn't exacerbate the internal contours - if anything, the topdressing gently softened them. And topdressing isn't the reason for all the hollows around the greens that lie several feet below them and create really delicate uphill pitches.


As for stimping at 13... I think it's probably accurate to say that Ross didn't envision that. I also doubt he envisioned a guy flying 3w over the range net 320 yards away.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Dan_Callahan

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2024, 11:00:38 AM »
We go through this before every US Open. A handful of pros talk about how thick the rough is, or how narrow the fairways, or how fast the greens. They talk about how impossible the course is ... how long it is. And inevitably after the first round there will be a bunch of 67s on the leaderboard.

Pierre_C

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2024, 11:05:18 AM »
Wayne,
    Yes, the original greens were sand - flat and square.  Grass greens were developed in 1935 by Ross for the 1936 PGA Championship.





No. 2 4th green below.



No. 02 18th green (1932)


(source: Tufts Archives)


Below are two photos of the 2nd green, 1936 & 2008. You can see the changes to the center of the green.

No 02 2nd green 1936



No. 02 2nd green 2008
No 02 2nd green 2008


When he designed the greens weren't they made of sand?  At least for the first decade or so.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2024, 11:31:48 AM by Pierre C »
(2^82589933) - 1

AKikuchi

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2024, 11:08:51 AM »
 Perhaps I just haven’t had my coffee yet, but I’m not sure I know what you refer to as the fallacy. Do you just mean that the current greens are rather different than what he originally designed?
 
My assumption is that Ross would be rather surprised to see the greens as fast as they’ll be playing them this week, but I’m certainly open to being wrong and learning something.

Peter Sayegh

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2024, 11:24:32 AM »
Wayne,
    Yes, the original greens were sand - flat and square.  Grass greens were developed in 1935 by Ross for the 1936 PGA Championship.





No. 2 4th green below.



No. 02 18th green (1932)


(source: Tufts Archives)


Below are two photos of the 2nd green, 1936 & 2008. You can see the changes to the center of the green.

No 02 2nd green 1936




No 02 2nd green 2008


When he designed the greens weren't they made of sand?  At least for the first decade or so.
Awesome info. Awesome pics.

Thanks Pierre.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2024, 08:17:17 PM »
Didn't want to start a new thread,

Brooks seems to be one of those "love him or hate him" kind of guys, but regardless this is hilarious.  I'm guessing Tom D may have a few stories from his MP days.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/lynch-after-brooks-koepka-declined-interviews-i-suggested-one-via-text-he-accepted-and-explained-why-he-s-not-talking/ar-BB1obu01?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=f8030e6955b0471285d62811f583bc7b&ei=21

cary lichtenstein

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2024, 09:27:06 PM »
Just wait til Sunday when the green are rock hard and running at a 16
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Rob Marshall

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2024, 09:29:06 PM »
Zac Blair had a nice round today. Maybe when it's all over we can get some comments from him.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Carl Johnson

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2024, 09:50:35 PM »
It's always puzzled me that somehow a "true test" of golf must involve superfast greens.  Why not super slow greens?

archie_struthers

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2024, 09:54:16 PM »
 ;D


Played number two only once when I still had a little game.  There were two or three shots that I remember being so difficult to hold that a couple replays would have been necessary to see if there was a way to make a par.  Interesting that I don't remember the exact holes so have think hard about it.


Having played a local course with greens at warp speed yesterday , this exercise will be interesting to say the least. It's fun to a point. Wonder if it will get crazy by Sunday looking at the forecast?


Bruce makes a great point about Nicklaus !  He was so strong mentally that he had more than half the field beat for sure before they teed off . Whenever the guys are bitching about how hard it is , it gives us grinders some hope. For all Nicklaus supreme talent his rain may have been his biggest weapon. He just didn't bite on anything he wasn't sure of, his miss was more important to him than where a great shot would end up!


My buddy reminded me today of another Nicklaus interview about pressure on him on the last nine at the Masters. Allegedly
Jack said in the interview with Bob Costas that "he was the pressure". Would be surprised if he said that but sure he believed it!
« Last Edit: June 14, 2024, 09:29:55 AM by archie_struthers »

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2024, 12:56:44 AM »
Reporters’ job isn’t to come up with the most creative questions possible. It’s to report what happens. If a player mucks up a hole, the question is “What happened?” Just like if a city councilman votes against something, the question is “why did you vote that way?” Simple.


Complaining about the creativity of the questions is just avoidance.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Greg Clark

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2024, 01:11:34 AM »
Well Tiger, Donald Ross also didn't design the course with 46 inch, 460cc composite drivers in mind.  Nor was he thinking about 5 piece golf balls that didn't spin off the driver, but off of irons allowed spin that would send the ball into orbit before landing.  Maybe Mr. Woods would prefer greens that stimped at 6 or 7?  Bollocks.



Pierre_C

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2024, 09:19:36 AM »
Tiger complained about the conditions at the 2004 US Open @ Shinnecock.

"This is our national championship and Shinnecock Hills is a great golf course, but they lost control of it. This is not supposed to be how golf is played." (source)

Lets us not forget, the majority of the players in the field complained about the conditions of the greens over the weekend.

In 2004, only 3 players had at least 1 round under par over the weekend  (below, not including Phil, but listed below b/c finished 2nd).

Finished -
01 R. Goosen ---_> 69 (Sat) 71 (Sun)
02. P. Mickelson -> 73 (Sat) 71 (Sun)
13 T. Clark ------> 66 (Sat) 79 (Sun)
36 C. Howell ----> 68 (Sat) 83 (Sun)

Tournament score per round
17 T. Woods ----> 72 - 68 - 71 - 80





Well Tiger, Donald Ross also didn't design the course with 46 inch, 460cc composite drivers in mind.  Nor was he thinking about 5 piece golf balls that didn't spin off the driver, but off of irons allowed spin that would send the ball into orbit before landing.  Maybe Mr. Woods would prefer greens that stimped at 6 or 7?  Bollocks.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2024, 09:23:38 AM by Pierre C »
(2^82589933) - 1

jeffwarne

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2024, 10:31:17 AM »
The goofy, unhealthy(to turf at least, and on so many other levels) greens at Shinnecock in '04 ands '18 are exactly the reason greens chairmen, members, and by Tournament committe members lead the race to the bottom with turf speed, and accelerate the death of interesting green design and pin positions.
Even the most contoured and interesting of modern greens(Old Barnwell with a fantastic set) built today have flattish places to put the pin, you  rarely see a pin cut into a reasonable slope anymore.


In the past 6 rounds I've played greens ranging from 6 to 10 on the stimp, with very creative pins and tremendous tilt and slope.


Those greens running 6 had more break in a 6 footer than anything I've seen on a Pinehurst 6 footer(because they have to find a flattish spot at Pinehurst to get the ball to stop) The course running 6 has pins cut into 4-6% slopes-which really affect approaches and make angles actually important.


Just a lot of money wasted to the detriment of the game IMHO.
faster greens with less slope/tilt do NOT present a "interpretively similar" challenge-perhaps on putts, but not on approaches of any length.


To Greg's point, just because we ruined the driving challenge with equipment, doesn't mean we should ruin great greens(and believe me we are doing that) to drive costs and scores soaring(as a compensation for losing the distance/ball battle)

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike Hendren

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2024, 10:51:59 AM »
For the OP:  what exactly is the “fallacy?”


To others - Tiger made no mention of “turtleback” greens. 


Tiger is spot on IMHO. 


Perhaps The Lurker will weigh in with his maintenance meld take.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2024, 10:57:54 AM by Mike Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Pinehurst - Tiger Quote
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2024, 02:08:11 PM »
Well Tiger, Donald Ross also didn't design the course with 46 inch, 460cc composite drivers in mind.  Nor was he thinking about 5 piece golf balls that didn't spin off the driver, but off of irons allowed spin that would send the ball into orbit before landing.  Maybe Mr. Woods would prefer greens that stimped at 6 or 7?  Bollocks.
I mean… was he wrong about any of this: “When Donald Ross did this golf course and made the greens this severe, I don’t think he intended it to be running at 13 on the stimpmeter"?

I also don't really read that as "complaining."
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

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