Is the Biarritz dead?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Dan

Glen Mills is not a former quarry site to my knowledge. As you may know, the course is owned and operated by the Glen Mills School, formerly known as a "reform school," and provides work experience for the court placed juveniles. It's the highest rated/ranked public course in Eastern PA.

Steve

[Lester George]

The dip in the Cavalier Biarritz is 7-9 feet deep!  Charles Banks shaped it.  When we got there the club had never used the front part as green, but after referencing Banks' original drawings, he intended it to be green.  The fact that the club opened in 1929 may have had an impact on the decision to maitain the green.

Thankfully, I convinced the folks at the club to let me restore it as he buit it.  Thats the hole they talk about most now.  

Lester

[A.G._Crockett]

The dip in the Cavalier Biarritz is 7-9 feet deep!  Charles Banks shaped it.  When we got there the club had never used the front part as green, but after referencing Banks' original drawings, he intended it to be green.  The fact that the club opened in 1929 may have had an impact on the decision to maitain the green.

Thankfully, I convinced the folks at the club to let me restore it as he buit it.  Thats the hole they talk about most now.  

Lester

Lester,
Do they have any problems with players wanting to hit lob wedges instead of putting if they are on the wrong side of the gorge?  I'm not kidding...

[Tom Jefferson]

As already mentioned here, the 5th at Bandon Trails is a Biarritz, and to me is natural, complex, exciting...a terrific green on the shortest hole on the course, coupled with a tee complex that allows various angles into it.

The ninth hole at Eagle Point near Medford, Or., has a small biarritz green conceived and shaped for either the short pitch shot or the risk/reward second on this short 5 par, with bunkers left and right, and a creek short and left.  Plenty of stuff to deal with there!

More sun in Bandon today, as we work towards June 1 and Bandon Trails opening.

Tom

[Scott Ramsay]

Yale's Biarritz is 210' long.
The swale is 4'6'' deep from the top of the fall to the bottom.
It is currently being stretched to 17,000 square feet.
In stead of posting a photo. The best recent photo of the ninth is on,  
                 www.golf-art.com

[Geoffrey Childs]

Scott

Let me use my brand new user login to be the first to welcome you to GolfClubAtlas!

For those who do not know, Scott is the "new" Superintendent who has transformed maintenance at Yale in such a short time. The new vistas opened up by tree removal bring tears to my eyes they are so good.  The greens are expanded to the point where #1 fringe melds into the #2 tee and the same for #17 into a forward tee on #18.  They are smooth and quick and in the best shape I have ever seen them.  And that's just the beginning.

THANK YOU.




Biarritz dead?  Hell no and certainly not at Yale. I hope it can be modified further based on some old photos in hand.

Mr. Cirba-  The swale at Yale is at least 50% deeper then #16 at North Berwick.  

[George_Bahto]

I'm not even going to qualify the question with a response

[texsport]

Didn't Jeff Brauer do one at The Quarry in N. Minn?

No -- but he did one on a short par-4 (No. 5) at The Wilderness at Fortune Bay in N. Minn.

See www.thewildernessgolf.com/newpage.asp?id=130&page=1980

There's also a Biarritz-style green (with not so deep a swale as Jeff's) at Bobby Weed's 4(?)-year-old Stoneridge (mid-length par-4, No. 6), east of St. Paul.

I believe that Jeff Brauer described the #6 green at The Quarry@Giants Ridge as a "half biarritz".

It very effectively bisects the front half of the green, continueing the accuracy theme of the entire hole brilliantly.

The tee shot is into the prevailing wind to an elevated plateau fairway bounded left, right and at 260 yards by deep quarry remnants.

The demand for pin-point accuracy continues on the approach shot - demanded by the shallow green, the 6 foot deep biarritz depression guarding the front center, the mounds guarding the right side, and a 15' deep hole off the left edge of the green.

Another great short Brauer par 4 surpassed only by the stunning 323 yard 13th.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Glad to report that the Country Club of Greenfield, MA, which I played this afternoon has a par 5, pretty much a 3 shotter for all players, with a green the likes of which I haven't seen before. A trench of around 3 feet in depth split the green from (approx) 7 o'clock to 1 o'clock, with 70% of the putting surface to the right of it. This is a hard and fast course and any attempts to fly the ball anywhere near this feature were harshly punished..
For other locals who don't know this course, my initial feelings are that it is a real find! $25 on  a weekday, almost nobody out there. Great contours. Greens that cannot be flown onto without thoughtful shots. Great variety of holes. And I played awfully, so it must be a great place for me to be raving.. I will try to get back with camera.

[George_Bahto]

I'd like to share 2 photos of Charles Banks' Biarritz at the Knoll.

The first picture is taken from the right rear of the green looking toward the tee.

Notice the wonderful lines Banks created flowing down from the green into the strip bunker .....  pretty good foran ex-English teacher.



........  but rarest of all is this horseshoe feature that is on the same green. I've seen most of the Biarritz greens these men built but this is feature on the Knoll's 13th is the best remaining example {IMHO].  They've been erased by clubs or "lost" after years of topdressing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

Do you think you could arrange for The Knoll to host the 2006 spring GCA.com get together ?

Mike Cirba,

I'm with you.

A mild depression makes the green more of a pseudo Biarritz rather than the real McCoy.  That's why I asked about the configurations.

[Lester George]

A.G.,

Haven't heard of anyone trying to hit lob wedge on the Biarritz but I doubt it would be necessary or condoned.

We did have one very comical incident on opening day.  Seems no one explained the "new" green complex to one of the oldest members, a man in his mid 90's.  After hiiting his tee shot to the rear portion of the green, he proceeded to drive his cart (as he always had) right across the front portion of the green thinking it was the old fairway.  

What can you say?


Lester

[Allan Long]

George,

How gauche of me to ask such a sophomoric question.

Shivas,

When I look at the photo of Mt. Prospect I don't see a Biarritz.
It looks like it just has a swale in it. Does it looks differently in person or am I missing something?

Pat,

You hit the nail on the head. A mild depression does make the
green more of a pseudo Biarritz rather than the real McCoy.
Some of the pics look like the real deal, some not so much.

[Mike_Cirba]

The dip in the Cavalier Biarritz is 7-9 feet deep!  Charles Banks shaped it.  When we got there the club had never used the front part as green, but after referencing Banks' original drawings, he intended it to be green.  The fact that the club opened in 1929 may have had an impact on the decision to maitain the green.

Thankfully, I convinced the folks at the club to let me restore it as he buit it.  Thats the hole they talk about most now.  

Lester

Lester,

That's great to hear and the picture clearly doesn't communicate that very well.

I'm glad that you were able to convince to club to restore such a controversial feature.  

Dr. Childs,

Perhaps you are correct.  I've never measured the one at NB, although my sense is that it's not as wide as the one at Yale, which may increase the visual perception of its depth.

On a side note...How long should we remain this formal?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Allan Long,

Yale, Piping Rock, The Knoll and The Creek all seem to have substantive differentials between the top two levels and the low point of the internal swale.

Westhamptons is a little unique, a Biarritz, but not of the same weight class as the others.

While some claim the Biarritz is alive and well in terms of current design and production,  I'd like them to describe the internal and external configuration, especially the differentials between the elevated plateaus and the bottom of the swale.

I would guess that most aren't as striking as Yales, The Knolls or Piping Rock's.

[Dan Kelly]

On a side note...How long should we remain this formal?  

Mr. Cirba, sir --

I do believe it would be an exceedingly entertaining -- and perhaps instructive -- exercise for us all to maintain sober and relentless formality vis a vis one another for a period of, say, a month.

How would gca.com change? Would it be for the better? Or would we all start writing like Mr. Max Behr?

Cordially,

Mr. Kelly  

[Joel_Stewart]

I'm just back from a few preview rounds at Bandon Trails and Bill Coore has built a spectacular biarritz on the new course.  Its rather short, I believe 126 to the front and 160 to the back.  Its the first one I have seen that is wooded.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel,

How deep is the swale ?

[Joel_Stewart]

Joel,

How deep is the swale ?

I would say 3 feet to the front tier and 4 feet to the back tier.  There is also a small mound on the left side of the swale.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel,

What's the width of the swale ?

[Joel_Stewart]

Joel,

What's the width of the swale ?

Its big.  This is a resort course which may be the difference in how Bill designed the course versus Friars Head or Sand Hills.  If someone has a picture, its hole #5 (#2 is also a par 3 which is similar to the 10th at Friars Head) and measures (to the middle) 126 from the back, 115 from the green and 105 from the front.  If the pin is on the back tier you could add 25 maybe 30 yards.

You have to hit over a slightly wooded ravine with 2 devils AH type bunkers in the front.  I would say the green is 50 feet wide and the swale is 35 feet deep.  You could put a pin inside the swale.   The first day the pin was back right and the 2nd day front middle which was a far harder shot then the first day.

It was one of my favorite holes.

[Bill Weber]

Only the back 3rd of the green at Yeaman's Hall was mowed to green height when I played there.

[Joel_Stewart]

Here is the photo of the little par 3 at Bandon Trails.  Its hole #5.  Note the 2 devil ass-hole type bunkers on the front.  I didn't take a photo from the side showing the biarritz green, but from here the back level is probably 160, the swale 140 and the front 125.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Allan Long,

I'd be interested to learn if CBM, SR or CB felt that there were certain, "required" minimum dimensions before a green could be considered a true Biarritz.

[Allan Long]

Patrick,

That is a great question, I have wondered that myself.
Skimming the writings of, and about the gentlemen you mentioned, I was never able to decipher anything definitive. I
thought about this last week as I played a local course whose home hole was a futile attempt at a pseudo-Biarritz (that's the kindest way to describe it). The swale was only 12" to 15" deep and it really looked like a half-hearted attempt, if that was what was trying to be accomplished. I am waiting for the marketing campaign, "Come play the Triangle's only Biarritz Green."  
Since Yale is the only CBM/SR/CB Biarritz I have seen, I am wondering if their other efforts at Piping Rock, St. Louis, etc., are consistent with that of the green at Yale.