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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Consulting tidbit of the month
« on: May 05, 2005, 07:24:27 PM »
A club at which we consult (which shall remain nameless, but is NOT Garden City Golf Club) has a faction which now insists that we add back tees, pinch fairways on short par-4's, and realign the water hazard which was put in years ago, all in an effort to strengthen the course against changes to the golf ball.

My response is that these people are like greyhounds chasing the mechanical rabbit of technology.

As all of us know, the greyhounds never actually catch the rabbit ... but a lot of money changes hands while they are trying.  

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2005, 07:31:23 PM »
Tom -- Perhaps you should suggest that the pro shop stock nothing but pre-2000 golf balls. Seems like a cheaper way to go.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2005, 07:32:29 PM »
Geez Tom, that's amazing.

Clubs in the USA are strange. I know not a single club in Canada with a faction of members who would make such outrageous suggestions to the consulting architects  ::)
jeffmingay.com

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2005, 07:37:58 PM »
I wonder with all the marvels of modern technology, is the average handicap at the club lower now then 5 years ago? I'll bet not.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2005, 07:46:22 PM »
Tom Doak,

Unfortunately, the case you cite is not an isolated example, but, reflective of a systemic trend.

I hear club after club persuing the same rabbit.

Perhaps, an interim answer is to wait until the USGA makes a decision on the ball, before embarking on an alteration that will cost money and may be useless five years from now.

I don't have a specific problem with employing elasticity as long as it makes sense on the hole in question, but, I've seen club after club look to lengthen almost every hole, irrespective of the destruction of the integrity of the design, the architectural values, in their efforts to chase the rabbit.

The best advice might be to advise the club to adopt a position of watchful waiting.

Then, let's hope the USGA does something to dial back the ball, sooner, rather then later.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2005, 07:53:42 PM »
Don,

I know not  ;)
jeffmingay.com

David Sneddon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2005, 08:08:17 PM »
Tom:

Does the membership consist of so many excellent golfers that par is broken on a daily basis, and handicaps rarely exceed  +2.0 ???

If, on the other hand, the membership has an average handicap of 18, and they still consider the course too easy to play, then the fault is with their Handicap Chairman, not the course.
Give my love to Mary and bury me in Dornoch

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2005, 08:27:26 PM »
The key that Tom said is its a "faction" not the entire club.  I wonder what the reason is, hopefully its not they want the US Open.

Since you said they want to realign the water hazards, that eliminates Chicago Golf and San Francisco.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2005, 09:15:05 PM »
Joel:

Chicago Golf does have a water hazard at holes 9 & 10; but it does not have ANY factions who want to do anything to the course.

And no, I can assure you this has nothing to do with hosting a U.S.  Open.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2005, 09:40:44 PM »
Chicago Golf does have a water hazard at holes 9 & 10; but it does not have ANY factions who want to do anything to the course.

And no, I can assure you this has nothing to do with hosting a U.S.  Open.

Yes I forgot about the water on 9 & 10.  Regardless, my comments are tongue in cheek although I think many courses think that with a few changes, they can host the US Open.

I wonder if they believe these changes, to "modernize" the course will attract new members or just provide a tougher test?

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2005, 10:04:58 PM »
Tom,that reminds me of the wealth surveys where,no matter what someone has in material possessions,they would feel comfortable if they only had 30% more.If humans were not so intent on comparison we would probably enjoy our courses and lives more.Easier said than done!

Scott Witter

Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2005, 09:41:30 AM »
Tom:

Does this faction understand that they (the club) hired YOU because of YOUR experience, knowledge and insight, and not because of their own, and probably limited understanding of golf course design?  It does sound a bit as though they are feeling the pressure (insecurity I think) of other clubs making similar changes "mistakes" maybe more likely, or that they just want to "keep up with the jones's", or they think that if they carefully flex just enough muscle and knudge that guy cool guy Doak a little bit more, he just might come around to our thinking so they could help their personal game and stature within the club.

Perhaps I am just to naive and foolishly hopeful to think that there could be any sensible members at a club who sought your wisdom now and in the past, who could actually think this might be a good idea, I'm guessing from your post that you are questioning their thoughts as well?  Do any of us on this site really think that the changes in equipment will go on forever before someone, hopefully the USGA, finally steps in and really says enough is enough!  As Tom says, they "never actually catch the rabbit"  

On the other hand, what Tom may be thinking, as he laughs inside, "silly people, do you really think I would consider such nonsense?"

I trust in the end the faction will once again listen to you and follow the same sound guidance you have given them in the past.

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2005, 09:58:22 AM »
I am not nearly as learned as many on this site regarding the history of golf course architecture, but I assume that the same pressures to alter existing course designs have existed in many other clubs during previous advances in golf ball technology, going back to the use of the gutta percha ball and beyond. Many original designs have been changed, some to the detriment of the course, while some courses may have been truly improved.

At what point, then, should a club decide to remain static in the face of advances in technology? There will always be more pressure to advance technology than for it to remain static, regardless of what the USGA decides. Is the eminence of the original architect the deciding factor, or the quality of the course itself, its historical importance, or should there be a general desire for existing designs to remain the same? Should only newly built courses reflect the changes in technology?

Who draws the line, and where?

"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2005, 10:06:58 AM »
In most cases, it's a vocal minority that causes a distrubance but in the end has very little influence on the outcome.

That's the case here. I happen to be familiar with the situation Tom's referring to.  
jeffmingay.com

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2005, 11:41:26 AM »
"...a faction which now insists that we add back tees, pinch fairways on short par-4's, and realign the water hazard which was put in years ago, all in an effort to strengthen the course..."

That is called channeling the USGA. It's quite easy to do, really. You listen to Fay, Ridley or Driver for a couple of years, and after a while it comes out of your mouth too. No thinking required.

Bob  
« Last Edit: May 06, 2005, 11:50:21 AM by BCrosby »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2005, 01:25:41 PM »

Who draws the line, and where?



Why not us? Why not here?
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

TEPaul

Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2005, 06:11:44 PM »
TomD said:

"My response is that these people are like greyhounds chasing the mechanical rabbit of technology."

TomD:

I like that one a lot. Mind if I use that one on some of the obstructionists at my clubs and others?

"As all of us know, the greyhounds never actually catch the rabbit ... but a lot of money changes hands while they are trying."

All of you'all on here may think you know that but it's not true. They sure as hell do catch the rabbit sometimes (always known as "Rusty") and it can be pretty funny sometimes. There has long been this wives tale (or is it tail) that holds that if a greyhound ever catches the mechanical rabbit it will ruin the greyhound and they'll never run again. That's not true either.  

How do I know all this stuff? Because fortunately, or unfortunately I inherited about 300 greyhounds when my dad died including the fastest 3/8th mile greyhound that ever lived. One of my jobs for about the next five years was to see that every single one of them got adopted without exception once they left the track or whatever.

As for the World Champion and World record holder he went out to Texas to stud in a Lear jet. One day the cowboy who ran that breeding farm called me and also my stepmother and told us in tears the great dog had died and that he'd buried him on his farm.

My stepmother apparenlty got irate and told that cowboy to go out there and  dig up that great dog and take him and get him creamated and send his ashes to her in Florida because she wanted to give him the proper burial the great animal deserved on her place---headstone and all!

That Cowboy called me and said; "Tommy your step-mother wants me to dig him up and have him cremated and his ashes sent to Florida."

And I said: "Yeah, well, Slim, so what, is there a problem with that?"

And Slim said: "Tommy, that's crazy, we ain't never heard of creamating a dawg out here in Texas, even a World Champion, World record holder like him. To do that I gotta dig him up and take him about 100 miles each way to a human funeral home."

So I said: "Tell you what Slim, just leave the great dog out there where you buried him on the Texas prairie, go get a small box, fill it with Texas prairie sand or dirt and mail it to my stepmother in Florda."

So that's what Slim did.

Then about five years later my stepmother died too and I sold that house in Florida of my Dad and stepmother to some fancy-pants, pain in the ass lady who held me up at settlement and told me she wouldn't settle on the house until I dug up that dog buried in the back yard because it was against some kind of local code anyway.

So I told them all at settlement the story above and there wasn't anything under that gravestone in the back of the place other than a box of Texas prairie dirt or sand. Well, that wasn't good enough and somebody had to get in a car and go over to the house and dig up the grave only to find a box of Texas prairie.

On my way out of town I took the gravestone with me and it's out back next to big boulder now on the farm in Pa;

It says;

GREYHOUND

P's Rambling
World 3/8th mile record holder
36.43
1984-1994

That dog was about the greatest and smartest athlete I ever saw--and mean! His career record was 41 starts and 31 wins and when we owned him he only lost twice, once that was so close he didn't realize he lost and the other race he lost our trainer told us he was so pissed off and surly until he ran again in about five days no one dared go near him. With us I think he set an American record of about 20 straight wins.

He was the greatest box jumper (breaker) the industry had ever seen. He'd come out of there in the air and in about ten strides everyone knew the race was over. Some of those races he won by 10, 15 and once 18 lengths!

Then in the biggest race of his career, the biggest race in America at Hollywood Park in Miami they all were saying he was just a front runner and he wasn't the greatest despite his times and his world record because he probably couldn't run in traffic since no one had ever seen him do it. We were expecting another box jumping blowout in that biggest greyhound race in America and to our horror he came out of an outside box and ran right up on the back of another dog and fell down. Since he was heavily bet and went off as a 1-9 favorite and a lot of the greyhound racing world had come to see him there was a big gasp in the clubhouse.

But he picked himself up and started working his way around and through traffic and he was third in the back stretch but the two dogs running in first and second place were neck and neck 17 lengths (!!!) ahead of him in the backstretch. There was a guy sitting behind us who at that point said; “Ah shit” and tore up his ticket on P’s Rambling.
But he kept on coming and in the homestretch he was only about 5-6 lengths behind those two front runners running neck and neck—and then he must have just hit the after-burner because he caught them both and went right between them and won by about a head from each right at the wire. Hollywood Park just sat there in stunned silence for about five seconds and then the whole place went crazy. Some call that race the greatest American greyhound race ever run.

P’s Rambling ran for about three more months at Hollywood Park and then coming down the stretch he broke his leg badly---but he hung on and won that one too!

He was so talented he probably could’ve been a decent golf architect too.

TomD: As fast as he was I never saw P's Rambling catch Rusty, the mechanical rabbit but I tell you one thing---trying to stay ahead of P's Rambling I did see Rusty, the mechanical rabbit set at least one world record for the 3/8th mile!  :)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2005, 07:36:55 AM by TEPaul »

Andy Doyle

Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2005, 09:57:21 PM »
Rabbits at Pebble?  Greyhound "ashes" in Florida?

God, I love this site.

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Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2005, 11:02:24 PM »
Tom, thats one hell of a story.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2005, 09:09:59 AM »
Tom,

I don't know if you can answer this, but I'm curious to know at what point a business decision superseeds architectural principals. What I mean is that every business, no matter how successful, goes through periods where they take work on for the sake of doing work, keeping employees during lean times or just because business is very slow.

In the scenario you outlined, when do business needs quiet the mouth and keep the architect from grabbing work for the money?

This is an ethical question & I don't want to put you on the spot, nor am I questioning yours. I'm just wondering what advice you might give to fellow architects about financial needs vs. the art of being an architect.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2005, 12:30:15 PM »
Phil,

That one has to be left up to the conscience of the individual ... and I guarantee you that different individuals would respond differently to the same situation.  

In fact, I suspect that as far as consulting work goes, the varying recommendations of a half-dozen different architects may have much more to do with their workload and their conscience, than it has to do with real design issues.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2005, 12:42:41 AM »
TEPaul - The services of your greyhound rescue mission are needed once again. The timing of the story is fate. Get your ass up to CT, these hounds need your humane expertise.



Dogs on fast track to death: Up to 1,000 greyhounds
By Laurel J. Sweet
Saturday, May 7, 2005 - Updated: 08:19 AM EST

Dog lovers are racing to save up to 1,000 retired hounds at a failing Connecticut greyhound track - even as officials there insist that few will actually end up on death row.
     Massachusetts pet adoption agencies have been swamped with offers of sanctuary for the lovable and bright pups as the financially muzzled Plainfield Greyhound Track prepares to close May 14 after 29 years.
     ``We're very concerned, but we're investigating to make sure we can separate fact from fiction,'' said Scott Giacoppo, spokesman for the Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. ``We'll do the best we can to find good loving homes for these greyhounds.''
     Calls from the Herald to Karen Keelan, the track's executive vice president, were not returned. But track officials have reportedly said they do not plan to euthanize the dogs - instead working to place them as pets, or relocate them to other tracks, with the exception of some that are sick or disabled.
     While the MSPCA has dispatched an investigator to check on the soon-to-be-homeless hounds, the Animal Rescue League of Boston damned track management's actions as ``unconscionable.''
     ``They're counting on everyone else to solve their problems,'' said Tom Adams, the nonprofit organization's spokesman. ``I can't even count the number of e-mails I've gotten. It's awful. It's just absolutely awful. We're talking about living things here.''
     Earlier this week, Connecticut Gov. M. Jodi Rell beseeched the track's owners to show ``class and compassion'' and promise her no dog will be put down until every conceivable attempt is made to relocate them. The hounds average between 2 and 4 years old.
     ``I will not stand by and let these dogs become hapless victims,'' Rell vowed.
     Louise Coleman, president of Greyhound Friends (www.greyhound.org) in Hopkinton, agreed, ``It's not a good situation. We're taking in as many (dogs) as we can as quickly as we can.''
     Marilyn Wolkovits of Greyhound Adoption Service in Salisbury will receive six Plainfield dogs Monday. On May 14 from 11 a.m. to 4 p.m., her organization will hold its 11th annual reunion at the Middlesex 4-H Fairgrounds in Westford for anyone who'd like to talk to people who've adopted greyhounds.
     Anyone racing to save a Plainfield pooch ``has got to think with their heads and not their hearts,'' Wolkovits cautioned. ``They're a 40 mph couch potato.''
     Daily operations at the Dakin Animal Shelter in Leverett have nearly ground to a halt as calls and contributions for the retiring racers pour in

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Consulting tidbit of the month
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2005, 01:25:45 AM »
If these guys are willing to "put their money where there mouth is" and spend the club's money on these changes to combat technology, perhaps they could be induced to pledge 10% or 20% of that amount to the USGA on the condition that they fix the problem via rule changes that adjust the equipment.  Much less expensive, and if enough clubs did this the USGA would have:

1) a better idea of how serious some people are about this issue
2) a warchest in case legal battles resulted (yes, I know they already have like $180 million, but they probably want to consider themselves an "endowment" now and won't touch the principal)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

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