Verrrrrrrrrrry Looooooooong Teeeeeees

[Jim Sweeney]

Forrest Richardson is doing some much needed renovation at the Wigwam Resort in Litchfield Park, AZ, an early 60's RTJ design that held a spot for many years in the GD Top 100. In a recent post he said they were dealing with some Verrrrrry Loooong Tees. I believe (I could be wrong) that "runway" tees were an RTJ staple.

To give some reference, the old head Pro. Red Allen used to bet resort guests that on one hole (the thirteenth, I think) they couldn't hit a nine iron from the back of the back tee off the front of the tee structure! He always collected.

What are the pros and cons of "runway tees?" Seems they'd be hard to build level and properly lined up, but that they'd be easy to mow and give lots of room to adjust tees to minimize wear, though the angle to the fairway would remain constant.

They might be hard to build on hilly terrain; the Wigwam course is about as flat as flat can be.

Red Lawerence also used "runway" tees at times. They're not in vogue today, but did any other achitects use them?

[Jonathan McCord]

    How long are these runway tees here, especially the one at Pine Tree?

[Jim Sweeney]

AT the Wigwam, I'd say they are anywhere form 35 yards on up. I think the longest one (13?) is about 135.

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

William Flynn used long tees, some upwards of 90-100 yards long, pretty early on in the 1920s, usually, but not always, in place of multiple tees.  Thus it is no surprise that one of his construction foremen, Red Lawrence, would use them later on as well.  I think I posted a few months back a number of courses where Flynn used them and the dates of construction.  I'll try to get some info for you tomorrow.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

In a sense I like them because they present the same angle of attack to everyone playing the hole.

The architect is telling you, start here, navigate my features and end up on the green and in the hole.

Dick Wilson employed them and GCGC has some as well.

With today's technology they're not difficult to build.

Many courses have seperate tee structures which provide differing angles of attack, mostly favoring the high handicap's game.   Boca Rio is such a course even though some of the primary and secondary tees are quite long.

It would be interesting to study their maintainance costs, versus seperate tee structures.

Wigwam was my first exposure to them.

Again, I like the concept of presenting a single angle of attack for all golfers at the start of the hole.

Jonathan McCord,

You could easily land a Piper Cub on the 16th at Pine Tree into a good wind.

Most of the tees there are very long

[Brad Klein]

They most certainly do not offer the same angle of attack for all players when there is the slightest curve or dogleg. To achieve that, they need to be staggered and repositioned slightly for the appropriate landing area.

Major pro - ease of mowing. I can't think of any other.

Easy test: you know a tee is too long when, from the back, you can't see the landing area because of the front of the tee.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I just played Point O Woods last week-An early RTJ course that host the Western Am and I was amazed by how long some of the tees were. I was also amazing as to how RTJ  built his courses for the future, with flexibility for distance.
#1 Tee is 60yds long.
#4 Tee is 50yds long.
#6 Tee is 50yds long
#8 Tee is 40yds long.
#12 Tee is 50yds long.
#13 Tee is 110yds long.
#17 Tee is 40 yds long.
#18 Teei s 40 yds long.

Brad-I understand where you're coming for when you day "easy to Mow" because you don't have 6 different tees that you have to mow, but I wouldn't want to be the guy(s) mowing them and having to keep the lines straight!! (There were straightening all their tees lines while I was @POW last week.)

[Patrick_Mucci]

They most certainly do not offer the same angle of attack for all players when there is the slightest curve or dogleg.
That's not true.
The slightest curve isn't going to alter the angle of attack off the tee.  And, any alteration would depend upon the location of the curve in the fairway or the location of the dogleg.

Cite me an instance at GCGC where the angles of attack differ from the tees ?[/color]

To achieve that, they need to be staggered and repositioned slightly for the appropriate landing area.

Appropriate landing areas for whom ?

For centuries, golfers teed off within one or two clublengths from the hole just completed.  There was "NO ONE" landing area meant for all golfers.  And, that remains true today.
There is "NO ONE" landing area for all golfers.

It's only in the last 50 years that mulitiple sets of tees became the rage through resorts, residential communities and increased play by women, juniors and seniors.

In the vast majority of cases, a single tee sets but a single angle of attack with minimum variation for all levels of golfers, it's the path the golfer chooses or defauts to that creates the variables for their next shot.[/color]

[PThomas]

I never liked 'em...not sure why, but I'm guessing is that they just look long and boring to me...

[Mike_Cirba]

Geoffrey Cornish, back when he used to work with William Robinson, built quite a few exceptionally long runway tees, as well.  Examples can be seen at Endwell Greens near Binghamton, NY, and Wilkes Barre Muni GC in PA.  

The tee on the first hole at Endwell had to be 100+ yards.

[Tom_Doak]

I never liked the look of runway tees, but they fit in fine on a flattish site, especially if they are built at ground height and not on two feet of fill.

I like them more than I like the look of five or six separate lily-pad tees laid out in a line, with native areas around them.  Or several rectangular tee boxes with conflicting angles, because they are squared up to the landing area from slightly different centerlines.  That looks horrible to me.

A few of our holes at Ballyneal will have "runway" tees of a sort ... but they are runways with contour in them, designed to look like part of a fairway instead of a tee.

[Forrest Richardson]

No. 13 at the Wigwam had been carved up about 10 years ago. It is now three separate tees, each angles to the same basic fairway point. In the original design the long, single tee was aimed well left of where it should have been—we still don't understand why this was.

Our plan will put it back into two or three levels, somewhat offset from one another.

A major disadvantage of long tees is that settling and wear and tear will make them look very uneven in a short span of time. Smaller tee surfaces are more forgiving. In essence, it's difficult to keep extremely long tees level and in consistent shape.

RTJ, Sr. used long tees to make a hole appear more narrow than it actually was. True: The look from the back portion of a long tee does constrict the golfer's perepective and send a signal that there is a preferred alignment—one very specific.

[JBergan]

No. 13 at the Wigwam had been carved up about 10 years ago. It is now three separate tees, each angles to the same basic fairway point. In the original design the long, single tee was aimed well left of where it should have been—we still don't understand why this was.

Are tees that point you in the wrong direction something RTJ, Sr. did intentionally?  I ask because a course I used to play frequently is an RTJ, Sr. design, and one or two of the tees (small runways, maybe 20-30 yds.)  point you into the woods or an oncoming fairway.

[Forrest Richardson]

I do not know the answer to that. Next time I speak with Bobby (RTJ, Jr.) I'll ask him. At the Wigwam they point to some poor folk's breakfast nook.