It's days like this...

[Mike_Golden]

when I read some of the threads in the discussions groups and see:

A complete moron claiming anyone should be able to write a best selling book;
The same complete moron claiming a best selling author (John Feinstein) is a hack
A self-professed 'expert' badgering anyone and everyone who offers an opinion about a golf course and rating that might in the slightest differ with his.
Another 'expert' offering his opinion of another's golf game when his (and handicap) are highly suspect

It makes me want to find another discusssion group, or better yet, just fawgeddaboudit completely.

Ran, do me a favor and remove me from this site.  I don't belong here, don't need to be here, and, in the end, am better off without it.

[JakaB]

Mike,

I thought the Dan Jenkins thread turned out rather well even if it is crashing here on the end...I did not say anyone should be able to write a best selling book, I simply asked why the writers on this site can't seem too.   We never did establish if John Feinstein is a reporter or a writer...and my wife was just in and she agrees with me that I am more "successful" than he is...it really is a low standard anyway don't you think.

Who are the other morons you refer too....saying their handicap is highly suspect is not a nice thing to say so please stand behind your opinion and name names...

[Buck Wolter]

What a bunch of crap -- just quit coming on the site and drop Ran an email privately and I'll bet he'd be happy to delete you. It's like cancelling your cable TV because you don't like the fact they offer HBO. If you don't have the self-control to pick and choose what threads you read -- good riddance.

Since you've quit I'm guessing you won't respond but how many thought provoking threads have you started? You may not like JakaB but he brings more to this site than 95% of the other members

[Lou_Duran]

Mike,

Sounds like you should have stopped to see me in Texas this past Friday.  Shame that you were detained to handle those loose ends.  Personally, I would rather have had a root canal without novacaine, but things have to be taken care of.

Do take a week or two to settle in FL, and then reconsider your request to Ran.  And don't let our boy from southern IL trouble you.  Imagine if you had to inhale the fumes from tar and blacktop daily for 30+ years.

[Michael Moore]

Mike -

I highly recommend BOMBSQUADGOLF.COM which features daily musings about which PGA Tour players are the biggest assholes, plus many many close up photographs of expensive putters.

Come on now, take a good look at GOLFCLUBATLAS.COM, you don't have to look far for interesting golf-related threads.

[A.G._Crockett]

Mike Golden,
With all due respect, you're giving way too much credit here.  Nobody is a "complete moron."  Morons are, by nature, incomplete in some way.  The moron(s) on GCA are certainly no exception.

[JakaB]

NAF,

Did you think the first two pages of the Jenkins thread was good stuff and worthy of this site...

[Robert Thompson]

John: Glad to see you married a woman as delusional as you, if she thinks you are more successful paving roads than Feinstein is as a writer. Not sure what that has to do with golf architecture. Apparently your roads are paved with gold, since Feinstein has written some of the best behind the scenes books in the sports biz. And he's both a reporter and a author. Guess what? You can be both at once.
I'm with Mike on this one -- John, you are wasting Ran's bandwidth and his money. I don't care how many people defend him -- but some good, notable people no longer post on this site because of this continuing BS.

[JakaB]

Robert,

All I want to know is if the Jenkins thread was good or bad for the site....If that is a bad thread than I am wasting my time here..

[danielfaleman]

The quality of writing on this site is extraordinary as compared to others concerning golf, and is the signature site on the subject of golf course architecture, referenced many times in the mainstream press.

I come to this site TO read posts from JakaB. And, from actual golf course designers/builders.

Feinstein is a hack, and a very successful one.

[Bill_McBride]

Lately I have been successfully tuning out JakaB's rants, and I don't seem to be any the worse for it!

To get on an architectural note:

Today I was at a meeting where Jerry Pate was showing us plans for a renovation project at Pensacola CC which really will improve our miserable drainage and install new sprinkler system, etc.

I told him after the meeting that I thought it all looked quite good, but that I insisted he build us a Redan.  He said, "You know what a Redan is?"

Doesn't everybody?  You do if you check in on GCA every now and then.

Ever notice how little JakaB's rants have to do with golf course architecture?

[SPDB]

Jerry Pate knows what a redan is?

[Brad Klein]

Some of you will get this; others won't. I'll try to be only slightly opaque out of a respect that isn't deserved.

What we are witnessing here on GCA, amidst some very good discussions and some very bad ones, are enablers who are enabling. They are part of the problem and their enabling gives credibility and more deference than would be the case if they held back and just ignored the pathology. There's a bit of a struggle going on for a moderate ground, and all too often the enablers are allowing the regressive element(s) to dominate. That's why the best strategy is to withhold and wait out the storm. Lots of good people have figured this out. No need to ask for names.

I quit teaching at a school once when, among other things (it wasn't the only reason) I realized that the moderate ground had been taken over by idiots and it had become okay to be publicly stupid. Once upon a time the dumb students shut up and sat in the back of the room. Somewhere along the way it became okay, even cool, to be disruptive, announce they thought the assigned texts were worthless or that they weren't doing the reading, or they blurted out wacky stuff in the name of being controversial.

When people start venerating stupidity as an acceptable part of public culture, it's over.

[danielfaleman]

"...enabling gives credibility."

Do you mean like the Golf Digest Top 100 Golf Courses threads?

[ian]

Mike,

I started taking part in 1999. I was a regular for about two years before I found myself pissed off enough to not post. I find I have to "drop out" for two weeks and sometimes for three months at a time to get a break from the site (when it becomes PGA.com - as it often does). The site is a great idea, it unfortunately is showing the pain of being too well known to work well.

Some people on this site are well worth coming here for the information they share (MacWood's post on Crump is as good as any magazine piece I have read). Unfortunately, there are many who know nothing, but often are the loudest voices on the site. Everyone wants architects and insiders to turn this into a community where ideas are shared and explored, but Brad Klein is right, encouraging the shit many call threads weakens the content. This essentailly drives the people you crave to participate, away from the site. I talked to a number of Golf course architects at the last meeting who read the site. Why don't they post? "because the site is full of guys who already think they know it all". The problem here is decorum, too many want to preach, and too few to listen.

To those of you who criticize Mike, go participate on the guy's blog. This site was supposed to be about architecture, not writing.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Brad,

You not really comparing an Internet discussion group that some of us toss Ran $70-73 per year (depending on par at your favorite course) to a University where families mortgage their homes to send their kids, or to a secondary school where families entrust the teachers with their kids futures? I would think that 95+% of us would toss JakaB out on his big fat ass if he was disruptive in our kids schools.

I can understand where JakaB pisses people off, but come on, we are not solving the world's problems here. As mentioned above, a little self monitoring goes a long way. Your are one of the few guys here that could start a serious discussion group through Golfweek. My guess is that its appeal will be limited, same as the JakaBlog.

PS. I have bought your book and I am a paying subscriber to your magazine, so be nice.  

[John_Cullum]

"...enabling gives credibility."

Do you mean like the Golf Digest Top 100 Golf Courses threads?

Dan

I believe that's among the assigned texts.

[Scott Witter]

Ian & Brad

As a golf course architect and with a bottomless interest in all aspects of golf course design & construction, and because of guys like you and the others who occasionally write on this site, they know who they are, that I decided to enter and participate, though as little as I do.  After reading the nonsense in this thread, I am again reminded why I don't write more, no explanation needed of course.

Ian, you'll have to excuse me on this one, but I'm sure you will understand.  "This site was supposed to be about architecture, not writing."  Yes, you are right, but you do have to admit, Brad certainly has a way with words and he couldn't have put it better.  Too bad the majority of the preachers just don't "enable" themselves to listen!, give a respectful nod, and move on to the next thread.  Just maybe they might learn something...naaa

[Mike_Golden]

I hadn't intended to reply (or even read) any of this but after several phone calls and emails decided to clarify my remarks.

First of all, I consider it disingenuous for someone to be a 'nice guy' in person and an ahole on the internet.  That just means he/she is a phony.

Second of all, there is no need to descend to personal insults in order to 'make a good thread'.  That just means the initiator lacks the mental ability to write in coherent sentences and pose a question in which people will have interest.

Third, there is no need to start a thread just for the purpose of slamming anyone who responds in a way that could be contrary to the initiator's opinion.  That doesn't breed good dialog, it just shuts it down.

I've participated in online golf architecture discussion for almost 10 years now, have learned a great deal about golf architecture, even know what a Redan AND a Biarritz are (and saw one of each today on a course I played for the first time) and have made numerous friends and acquaintances that share a common interest, but have no interest in participating in a group where the above is not only tolerated but encouraged.  So Ran is welcome to give my spot to someone else if he so chooses.  

A good friend today reminded me that GCA is a resource unlike no other in the world;  Ran and everyone who participates in GCA should be proud of this.  We should be less proud, however, about the personal insults, putdowns, and assorted darts thrown for the sake of 'good discussion'.

In response to my critic about whether I have started any important threads recently, all I can say is that when I have something to say, I post it, otherwise I keep my mouth shut.  I may not have started very many threads, but I've most likely hosted more GCAers at my club than almost anyone on this site and take pride in knowing that I've done it out of friendship rather than any agenda for access to other courses.

[Michael Moore]

I have finally found a concise essay regarding the jester. I am surprised that a group so literate and intelligent resists this.

"It is in the nature of jesters to speak their minds when the mood takes them, regardless of the consequences. They are neither calculating nor circumspect, and this may account for the "foolishness" often ascribed to them. Jesters are also generally of inferior social and political status and are rarely in a position (and rarely inclined) to pose a power threat. They have little to gain by caution and little to lose by candor. . ."

"The foolishness of the jester, whether in his odd appearance or his levity, implies that he is not passing judgment from on high, and this may be less galling than the "holier than thou" corrective of an earnest adviser. One of the most effective techniques the jester uses to point out his master's folly is allowing him to see it for himself. Rather than contradicting the king, the jester will agree with a harebrained scheme so wholeheartedly that the suggestion is taken to a logical extreme, highlighting its stupidity."

Let's keep our clown in perspective . . .

[JakaB]

Somebody has to do it and Ran doesn't seem to want too...the next time you see my name it will be black and have guest under it...It was a good run and stop in a see me next time you are around where ever I might be.  I can count on you guys to carry the torch to higher learning.

Good bye and thanks..

[Jeff Goldman]

Well, then, in honor of the literary thread that led to this happy day  , let me cite the Scottish play, Act I.iv. 7-8.  Look it up.  He would have wanted you to.

[Voytek Wilczak]

You guys are embarrassing yourselves in the eyes of GCA newbies like myself.

I came to this site for the awesome insight, amazingly free, about the golf course architecture.

I got what I was looking for, along with a heavy dose of usenet-like posturing, bullshit, flamebaiting, inflated egos, road paving lessons, smartass comments - gimme a break.

You're going to lose Tom Doak and other invaluable contributors from this site if you keep it up.

Usenet-like ego trips and flame wars are so yesterday.

[Voytek Wilczak]

I like this guy.  15 posts into it and he's pressing the bet/calling the ball/going wolf -- whatever you want to call it.  Ballsy.  Voytek, I hope you get to Chicago on occasion.  

I do get to Chicago often. I am a good fit there, coz I am Polish. Polish golfer - that's a good joke

[PThomas]

Voytek  -- this fellow Polishman -- my name used to be Thomaszeski and my mom is Gintkowski --wonders if you know the answer to this one, which one of my daughters asked me the other day:  are there any golf courses in Poland yet?  I believe as of a few years ago there weren't, but maybe now?

welcome to GCA!

pt