[Brent Hutto]

So about 1% of all golfers are accomplished and the rest should be playing some kind of match play.

In my comments, I didn't mean to imply "should" but rather to describe that the very best players I know have a strong preference for stroke play whereas the other 99% or whatever seem to find match play games more fun.

That's an awfully broad generalization, of course, but it indicates to me that the appeal of stroke play is more in its ability to fully test the accomplished player's game.

[Tom_Doak]

Forrest:

Is the ASGCA championship at match play?

The Renaissance Cup is ... two-man, better-ball matches at scratch, nine holes at a time.  Just think if you did that for the ASGCA ... you and Jack Nicklaus against Pete Dye and Brian Silva!  They'd needle you to death and probably steal the match away on the last green.

I might even join if you pick up this idea ... especially if you let me play with Steve Smyers or Tripp Davis.

[Brent Hutto]

Why again is match play superior to medal?

Is it because on a given day an inferior golfer may topple his superior? I'm not sure this is strongly true over just 18 holes

Might it be a speed of play issue?  (Should golf incorporate a game clock?) That's certainly one implication of match play but pretty minor compared to the other factors that slow down play

Or does it have something to do with match play as contested in most weekend money games promoting a more aggressive, go for broke approach? I think this is part of the appeal of match play

Could match play be more akin to checkers, and medal to chess?If anything, match play has more strategy than medal play so I don't think that's an apt analogy

Might it also play into our preference for less discipline and more frequent gratification?That's getting close to the heart of the matter. Match play is more about trying to hit great shots and trying to maximize the upside of your game. Stroke play is about avoiding big mistakes. Which is more fun? For most people, surely a "game" that is about doing something spectacular once in a while is more of a break from everyday life than a "game" which is about avoiding risk.

[Brent Hutto]

We've alluded to but haven't mentioned the fact that match play is far more suited to various team formats than is stroke play.

[Dan Kelly]

I would also think that nine holes (which most spring HS golf is) of match play would really diminish the format, since you could be finished after 5 holes, AND have insufficient light for playoff holes to boot if the match was extended.

Good points.

[Lou_Duran]

Brent,

I did mention that there is a connection between match and more golf games in my comments about gambling.

As to more strategy in match, I just don't see it.  In medal, you are not just playing the current hole.  You are thinking about where your opportunities lie on the entire course, and you may choose to play strategically- say laying up from 225 yards over water, because the risk, a double or worse, may wreck your entire round.

In match, each hole has a single consequence, win or lose that hole.  In medal, you have to keep your wits about you- think more strategically (how can I make birdie withouth jeopardizing par) for 18 holes.  How often have you had a good round going then make a nine?  In match, that nine ain't bad if your opponent had a 10.

Playing the course and not your opponent is given as sound advice even for match play.  But how often do we actually do it?  My last match at Stevinson where Huckaby tore me a new one is a perfect example.  Rather than playing the course and staying within my game, I started playing him.  Was that more thoughtful or strategic?  I think not.  Putrid, stupid, yes.      

[Sean_A]

Lou

You could make the same arguments for matchplay.  Hit fairways, greens and make pars and the pressure is nearly always on the opponent.  I think the strategies of each game more or less even out.  I personally prefer matchplay, but will usually play better with a card in my hand (usually Stableford).  There are always 2-3 times (perhaps more if I am giving away a chunk of shots) during matchplay that I try a shot that I almost never would if I was keeping score.  Rarely does "going for it" help my score.

But what do I know?  I hate scrambles and nearly everybody I know loves them.  I don't seem able to get any flow or feel for the game.  It just seems like a series of "go fo it" shots.  

One game I really enjoy is bogey.  The idea of capped player going one up on the course is brilliant!

Ciao

Sean

[Patrick_Mucci]

Forrest,

BRING BACK THE STYMIE FOR MATCH PLAY.

Defense, defense, defense.

[Jim Sweeney]

Mr. Crockett: Go to the USGA Handicap Manual for a complete discussion to hole by hole stroke allocation. You will find it suggests not having low numbered stroke holes bunched together at the beginnings or ends of the nines. Odd numbered holes go on the front and even numbered on the back unless the back is considerably more difficult. This benefits the better golfer because if the difference between the opponenets is an odd number, the higher handicapper gets the extra stroke on the front, and not at the end of the match.

It seems the major points on this subject have been made except, possibly, that the market has probably decided the right mix of match versus medal play golf.

There are two major professional match play events, and the pros probably won't stand for having to show up for another one (Ryder and President's Cup excepted) if there is a 50% chance the'll go home after one day empty handed (walleted?) It could be done in the off season since appearence fees wouldn't be a problem.

The major amateur events are mostly match play, though in the pasty ten years some have gone to medal, particularly at the state and regional level, primarily due to course availablilty. Match tournaments take too many days from the members, and too much money from the public course tills. There is more and more talk, however, about reinstituting match play at this level.

There's no question that the more rounds in a medal competition, the higher the chance that the better golfer will prevail. That's not true in a series of 18 hole matches, though more so in a 36 hole or longer match. However, as has been mentioned, the delight in match play, the "mano a mano" aspect, is very compelling.

Are there good match play courses and courses better suited for medal? The greatest match player of all time says he never was very successful until he learned to forget about his opponent and play "old man par." Decide for yourself what that means in relation to the question above.

[ward peyronnin]

Forrest

What a great topic

With all due respect Lou mathch play was the way the game was meant to be played. All original lof golf were local and enforced by mutual assent of two competitors and not designed to protect a field. Just refer to B Darwin for recollections of the contests that produced.
And  match play is fun- provides the chance for recovery- levels the playing field for two dissimilarly skilled competitiors unlike tennis, fencing, handball, ping pong- any other contest i can recall with the expectations that either man can win.
We already have some great match play events- US Am and Mid Am with which TV/USGA/TGC can experiment using a Tivo tape delayed format to  segue into a live wrap assuming the end isn't a 6&5 disaster but stoke play contests have their disaster finshes too. This could lead to a broadcast technique that would improve the viewabilty of this style of play and perhaps interest the pga.
In the end thoi Forrest it seems likt the GCAs  as the early focus of influence have the power and obligation to educate owners regarding the richness of match play and the designs receptive to it which ultimately raises he awareness of those operating the course . Are you all not up to the task w/out the help of the PGA?

Ward Peyronnin

[ward peyronnin]

Correction:
"All original rules of golf...."

Sorry it is late

[Tommy_Naccarato]

At the 2003 Annual Meeting of the ASGCA there was discussion about how the game could be made more fun and enjoyable. There was a great spectrum of ideas.

A focus became the idea to promote match play in America...which many thought an almost impossible task.

Is it? I would love to hear some ideas on how you think policies, handicap, etc. could be adjusted so that match play could be promoted — and embraced — in America. (Or, do you even think this is a good idea?)

Show them the Golf Links at Mongoky and let them see how well matchplay works there. That's how you do it! Just don't let them hang around Mutin. He's a sand bagger. They'll lose everything they own.

[Forrest Richardson]

There are some great comments and thoughts expressed here.

While I cannot quite envision the stymie being reintroduced to golf, it would make for exciting television, especially if physical contact were allowed. I suppose it would be similar to the thread from a few years back when we discussed the concept of abolishing the wooden tee — in favor of nothing! Let Tiger and Company hit their massive metal headed clubs off rough and worn-out tee surfaces without the benefit of an artificial devise. Ha!

Is the ASGCA championship in match play format? No, but a match play format is included among our rounds. This would certainly be a good start. (As for me being paired with Nicklaus and Dye, this has not happened. Maybe Jackie II and Ken Dye.)

[Forrest Richardson]

To the question of whether architects take into account the format of play when designing a course. Sure. But here in the States there is little if any interest in match play — currently.

It is my believe that a truly interesting and fun golf course will show its colors whatever the format. It does seem, though, that the element of match play would allow more edgy design and hazardry without as strong of resistance from owners and course developers.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Forrest,
Even though I believe that seeing more match play events on the tube would help there is one issue that is nearly insurmountable: cost. Selling the virtues of match play to someone who's just paid 50, 75, 100, or 350 dollars is like trying to sell a 9-ball dozen.

[Forrest Richardson]

Are you saying that people will not play match play because they feel they are not getting their $$$$ worth?

[THuckaby2]

Forrest:

Far be it from me to speak for Jim, but as I understand it that's exactly what he's saying.

In any case too many US golfers sure do have the attitude of "I've paid my fee, I'm gonna damn well play out the hole until I hole out, no matter how many strokes that takes."

That's one of the many attitudes that would have to be changes for match play to really take hold here.

TH

[Jim_Kennedy]

Forrest
Tom had it right, that's what I'm saying.

It's a fairly common attitude among daily fee players. I see it here at Hotchkiss and it only costs $13 to play our nine.
On the other hand our season pass holders are more willing to use several different formats (modified stableford, low ball/low aggregate) including match play for their leagues, events and play in general.  

There are many folks who come to a public course as a single or with a buddy or as a threesome who never engage in matches. There is no other way but stroke play for them to measure how they faired, numerically and not esoterically, speaking.
For match play to be become more widespread (again) it needs  structure, i.e., clubs, leagues, outings, tournaments, etc.. Increase membership or participation in the above and match play becomes more prominent.  

[Forrest Richardson]

This has a lot to do, also, with management. I hear quite often from managers such nonsense as, "We simply can't tell the players where to hit from..." What bull. That's what tee markers are for. If they aren't all the way back, they should not be able to be used. It is, as I recall, against the rules.

This is a sensitive issue, but I often hold management responsible for many of golf's problems. If managers would implement more proactive and responsible policies it would help speed the game and make it more fun for all.

Would a crowded public course be successful in requiring match play format on Saturday mornings? I think it could be done.

[Kyle Harris]

Forrest,

My High School's league plays Match Play for the regular season (about 20 matches) and then stroke play for the championships.

I think an ideal start would be getting state and local high school athletic associations to adopt pure match play for their leagues. Heck, even throw in a foursomes match here and there.

I know most of the people I still play golf with on my high school team all play match play yet, and I think that had something to do with it.

[David Sneddon]

Growing up and playing in Scotland in my formative years, the majority of play was Match-Play.  Evening and Saturday games were always Match Play except for the monthly Medal and competition qualifying.  Generally after qualifyingthrough medal play the copmpetition was a match play event after that.

I attend a golf weekend in Ohio every year and one of the main events is the afternoon nine holes "Match Play Madness".  It was devised by the host of the tournament and harkens to the words of C.B. MacDonald.  The event is Match Play, but there are no Rules - no stroke and distance for OOB, no lateral water hazard drop, no unplayable lies.  You play the ball as it lies and you may never touch the ball until it is holed out.  (Only exception is if your ball is in another player's line, then you pick up with two fingers, do not clean, then replace)  It leads to some very interesting lies and shots.  Takes us back to the real old days before all the Rules and  Decisions made golf complicated.

[Mike McGuire]

Some interesting observations from John L. Low.  Concerning Golf

"Golf is indeed a contest rather than a combat; but in medal play it sinks to the level of a competition."

"The natural egotism of men and nations joining in the game made popular, however, for a time the single form of the sport. The beginner wished to know his own worth as a player day by day, and conceived the plan of writing his autobiography on small pieces of paper planned for the purpose. Golf became for him of interest only in so far as his own total of hits and misses was concerned. The battle proper was of small account; even victory and defeat were terms of mild comparison.  The one and only interest lay in the daily attempts to reduce the total strokes which were required to compass a given number of holes. In this selfish struggle it is little wonder that the position and very life of golf as a game was foe a time assailed. It became no longer a friendly affair of the skill of one man as compared to another, or of two men as compared to two, but rather an individual attempt to perform some feat irrespective or rivalry or contest."

[Jim_Kennedy]

Forrest,
You said:

Would a crowded public course be successful in requiring match play format on Saturday mornings? I think it could be done.  

Yes, it could be done but you're making the assumption that all those golfers are coming to the course to compete with one another when in truth many of them are just there for recreation. Managers asking players to limit themselves to a double bogie per hole has a better chance of beiing accepted than requiring them to follow a certain format.

....I often hold management responsible for many of golf's problems. If managers would implement more proactive and responsible policies it would help speed the game.....

If you are trying to equate match play with faster rounds and blame managers for not employing such a policy then, no offense, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Managers follow owners wishes, i.e., make me money or take a hike, so blaming them for much of what you perceive are golf's problems, including slow play, is unfair. There is enough "blame" to go around if you want to start pointing fingers.
One could blame architects, they build courses that are too long and too hard. They too are following the owner's wishes and he'll say the same thing to them that he'll say to his manager if they(architects) don't produce what he wants, i.e. take a hike.
One could blame the superintendents. They follow an owner's wishes and adopt many of the new technologies that come along. If they don't follow his wishes they too will hear the take-a-hike refrain. Technology can lead to the high green fee/ slower play combo I cited in an earlier post. Slick greens don't encourage speedy play either.    
One could blame the Tour, TV, culture, and on and on and on, for any number of issues orbiting around golf or one could look for answers, as your thread began, without  assessing "blame".    

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