Any courses where the par fives are late in the nine?

[mike_malone]

 Wayne and I are going back and forth about Rolling Green's #18 --whether it should be a 4 or a 5 par.


    It made me wonder how often you have seen courses where the par fives are late in the nines. And whether that is a good way to route a course.
   

    For RG it is #7 and #9--#17 and#18

[David_Tepper]

The Olympic Club Lake Course opens with a par-5 and then does not have another one until #16 & #17 (which gets turned into a par-4 for the US Open). I really could not say whether that is a 'good' or 'bad' way to route a course.

[Neil Regan]

   At Ballybunion for many years, and again for the 2000 Irish Open, the course began on what is now #6. In that routing, the par-5 holes were thus #8, and #s 11, 17, 18. (Their daily #s are 13, 16, 4, and 5.

   It's not a bad way to route a course, if you accept what the land offers.



   

[Mike_Cirba]

Umm...Pebble comes to mind.

So does Pacific Dunes.

Granted, neither is as "easy" a hole as a par five than Rolling Green.

Of course, birdieable finishers goes back to St.Andrews, North Berwick, and Prestwick.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

How about late in the 18? Only 2 par 5's at Yale, #16 and 18.

[ChasLawler]

The 16th and 18th at the CC of Virginia - James River are par fives.

Coincidently the 18th was played as a par 4 both times the course held the US Amateur. From the back tee, the hole stretches to almost 510, but it can play as an excellent par 4 from about 490 in. From 490 it takes a carry of about 270 to fly a fairway bunker flanking the left side of the fairway. If one successfully carries that bunker, they can pick up an additional 20 or so yards from the turbo boost off the back side of the bunker. From there they are left with a mid to long iron into a well protected elevated green. Most mortals try to play around the bunker and are left with a long iron or fairway wood into the green.

Flynn designed it as a straight away hole originally, but the green was moved about 30 yards right in the 50's (I think) to make room for an access road to the maintenance area. Lester George recently renovated the hole, and brought the green about 15 yards closer to it's original position.

Par 4 or 5, it's a pretty good hole...but I've probably seen more 6's than 4's - even when played from 490 in.

[Ken_Cotner]

Aren't the 17th and 18th at Baltusrol (whichever course hosts the US Open) the only par 5's?  Or is that just for the pros?

[Andy Doyle]

I just played Mike Young's Wolf Creek in Atlanta for the first time last Friday, and I thought it had an interesting routing - you get hit with the par 5's early and late.  Holes #1 and 3 are par 5's, as are #17 and 18.

Interesting pace on the front 9: 5/3/5/3/4/4/4/4

AD

[Michael Moore]

Save a bundle at Cape Arundel - the ninth hole is the only par five, and it measures a mere 480.

[Jim Franklin]

Ken -

#1 is a par 5 for the members. It should be a par 4 for the members though.

[wsmorrison]

I don't think it matters to the overall design what the routing progression is as far as par is concerned.  Of course you wouldn't want the extreme with all par 3s 4s and 5s lumped together.  But in genereal, as far as where par 5s come into the progression, there are so many permutations that work, I wouldn't look for any general rule of thumb since the grounds for the golf are so different from course to course.  

I agree with Neil, it all depends on what the ground gives.  Of course you can take some of the modern architects and force whatever you want--initial cost and maintenance expense over time makes this seem unreasonable.  Try not to look for formulas, Mike; many of the best courses go their own way.

One interesting routing progression in terms of par can be found at the Old Course at The Homestead.  There are 3 par 3s, 3 par 4s and 3 par 5s on each nine.  The way it is today isn't the way Flynn redesigned the Ross holes but rather a result of Reese Jones's work in 1994.

Front 9:  5-3-5-5-3-4-4-4-3  No par 4s till the 6th hole
Back 9:   4-3-5-5-4-5-3-4-3

Both the Cascades and the Old Course finish with a par 3.  The Jones par 3 does not fit in to the routing but this was subordinated to the needs of a driving range.

Merion East's two par 5s are the 2nd and 4th hole, that isn't a problem at all.

By the way, for Rolling Green the par 5s are 7,9 and 17  

[Brent Hutto]

My home course (the University Club in Blythewood, SC) has Par 5's as the ninth hole of each nine. I've never heard anyone complain about that arrangement although for me personally the ninth hole on the front nine has a way of derailing a decent nine.

In fact, our course's sequence is 4/3/4/3/5/4/4/3/5 on the front and 4/3/4/4/5/4/4/3/5 on the back. So each nine has Par 5's as the fifth and ninth and one-shotters as the second and eighth. I'd never until now thought about how symmetrical that is, I don't think it was on purpose but sort of works out that way with the terrain they had to use to get both nines to return to the clubhouse.

The front nine ends with an easy Par 3 and a hardish Par 5 but the back nine is the opposite with the hardest Par 3 on the course followed by a fairly easy Par 5.

[JESII]

I may be wrong, but I think an 18th hole par 5 is a prerequisite for hosting a Champions Tour event. Think about it.

[wsmorrison]

I have an interesting preliminary routing proposal for Rolling Green (I only have a small portion of the routing map showing the hole yardages).  This plan was superceded but shows Flynn's holes 1-15 are exactly the same as built.  So the routing ends at the current 15th hole.  Flynn had the finish entirely different with 16 as a 471 yard hole, 17 as 207 yards and 18 as 419.  I'm sure 18 would've ended where it does today; so the hole would not have had the downhill portion of the tee shot.  

This leaves me wondering how Flynn fit in 16 and 17.  Somehow 16 would have to cover a good portion of the current 17th and the 17th would have to finish at the start of the current 18th fairway.

It is intriguing.  I'll have to give it some more thought.  I kind of like the idea because 18 would've been a par 4.  With elasticity it would be a fine long finishing 4.

[wsmorrison]

Bill V

When I said "...you wouldn't want the extreme with all par 3s 4s and 5s lumped together."  I meant the very extreme with all the par 3s together and all the par 4s and par 5s:

3-3-3-3-3-3-4-4-4-4-4-4-5-5-5-5-5-5 for example.

I don't mind back to back anything as long as there was a reason for doing so and the overall balance and flow works well.  Back to back par 5s work particularly well when they differ in length and shot testing demands.

On Flynn's routing plan for Lehigh, 9 is indicated as a 460 yard par 5; in 1942 it was a 435 yard par 4 and today it is a 415 yard par 4.  On the routing plan 10 was a 429 yard par 4, in 1942 it was 423 yards and today it is 427. Lehigh's 11th was 479 yard par 5 on the routing map; 477 yard par 5 in 1942 and 501 yard par 5 today.

[Ted Kramer]

The venerable Lido on Long Island has a par5 9th and 16th. I could argue that those are the most pivotal holes on the course.

Highschool matches played at Lido end on the 9th, and many are won and lost on that hole.

The 16th is a very memorable hole that offers a bunch of options.

Lido has 2 good par 5s, both late in the 9s.

-Ted

[Seth Berliner]

Cherry Hills has back to back par 5's for the members although 18 has played as a 4 for all of the previous majors and will for the Women's Open this year.

[A_Clay_Man]

To this day, Ken Dye's decision to close with BtB Par 5's at Pinon Hills was great. What makes them work so well, is that they both go the same direction, west. When the wind is really a blow'in, it is from the west. Gives the golfer something to think about long before they arrive.

[Mike_Cirba]

Wyncote in PA by Brian Ault has par fives 1, 9, 10, 18.

Wouldn't the Cherry Hills example of back to back par five closers indicate that was something Flynn was familiar with?  

[Seth Berliner]

Yes, I would think so.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:  As I recall, Victoria Golf Club in Melbourne has as its par fives holes 8, 9, 17 and 18.

I've never played it in competition so I don't know whether it has a significant effect on the psyche.  In fact I've never really heard anyone comment on the unusual pacing of the course.  Perhaps Mike Clayton could chime in about it.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

How about Wentworth West, home of the World Match Play event every fall in England? The 17th and 18th par5s are great match play holes. Some exciting finishes there over the years with eagle-eagle finishes possible.

[Jim Sweeney]

UNM South in ABQ finishes both nines with par 5's. I would expect that both could be par 4s for naqtional events, even the ninth at 600+ yards due to altitude and downhill second to an open front green.

[Ken Bramlett]

The 9th at Oakmont is a shortish par 5 and so is the 18th at Laurel Valley.

Down this way, you've got the 8th at Pinehurst #2 (which is played as a par 4 for the Open), the 18th at Yeamans Hall and the 18th at Haig Point (and the 9th???  I can't recall).

Interestingly, numbers 6, 8, 17 and 18 at Myers Park CC here in Charlotte (one of three private clubs that have Ross designs) are par 5's, but at the other two Charlotte CC has 5'ers only at numbers 7 and 12 and Carolina Golf Club has them at numbers 8 (followed by a par 3 ninth) and 13.  

Great question.  

[wsmorrison]

Wouldn't the Cherry Hills example of back to back par five closers indicate that was something Flynn was familiar with?  

Mike,
That should be changed to a par 4 as well.  If the women play it as a par 4, damn straight I am too.  But you and Mike Malone can play that 18th as a par 5 along with RGGC's 18th.  I'm beginning to think that Flynn was a bit of a wimp!  You and Malone too!