Did the Arts and Crafts Movement really influence GCA?

[T_MacWood]

"Why would you suggest the subject of the Philadelphia School would be a sensitive subject to us?”

I assumed that after Wayne said he’d prefer to discuss the particulars of the Philadelphia School off line, and after the discussion continued on line, he eventually said he'd prefer not to continue.

"What in the world is that all about?”

What’s what all about?

"Who do you suppose it was who may’ve first coined the term 'Philadelphia School of Architecture', Tom? "

I believe Geoff Shackelford was the first to coin the term Philadelphia School (along with the Ross School, MacKenzie School, Monterey School and the National School). Why?

"I think it’s an excellent example of why I believe you have a very odd and inaccurate way of looking at golf course architecture, its evolution and history."

You are entitled to your opinion. I believe that is what you said after learning I was writing an essay on George Crump.

[wsmorrison]

I said that I would talk about particulars having to do with Pine Valley offline, not anything else to do with the Philadelphia School.

Specifically this question:

"I wonder if the folks in Pittsburgh will be surprised with Fownes inclusion in the Philadelphia School. What did Fownes contribute architecturally to PV?"

Maybe you were too busy checking out if there was a double standard to notice.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

I told you on here months ago and then again weeks ago what Fownes's primary contribution to PVGC was according to the archives of PVGC but apparently you overlooked that. Great research there!  

[T_MacWood]

Wayne and TE
What specifically was Fownes architectural contribution to Philadelphia golf.

[TEPaul]

In my opinion, it was his postion on the so-called 1921 Advisory Committee at Pine Valley and his remarkably strong opinions on Hugh Alison's hole by hole recommendation plan for PVGC. He was the only one, so far as the PVGC archive records show who offered a detailed point by point reply (in writing) to Alison's recommendation plan.

Fownes or Oakmont may've influenced Crump and PVGC in other ways that can never be more than speculation now. One really does wonder if Crump may've taken his highly unusual "church pew" like bunker scheme which Crump drew on the topo for hole #2 from Fownes or Oakmont. Co-incidentally Crump had qualified as the medalist at Oakmont for the state amateur. (Crump was a pretty good player but that may've been one of his playing high-points).

If you want any of the details of Fownes's written response to Alison's plan I'd be happy to supply them to you.

[wsmorrison]

Tom MacWood,

The reason why I wanted to discuss Fownes's work at Pine Valley offline is in deference to the source of most of my materials that explain it.  Some archival materials need to be approved by the club before they should be shared, especially on a website.

I would be more than happy to share with you information from public records that mention Fownes and Pine Valley (such as the Hugh Wilson-Piper/Oakley letters at the USGA) should you request them.  

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
I've seen the archival information on PV and Fownes, it's at the USGA museum, which is, as far as I know, public information. And TE's talked about it on GCA numerous times.

If you are going to include Fownes in this group, don't you think the Pennsyvannia School would be a more appropriate description? And if you are going to included Thomas, don't you think you should include Heebner?

Do you think Thomas would be more at home in a California School? Or is it your view that he should be included in both?

[TEPaul]

"If you are going to include Fownes in this group, don't you think the Pennsyvannia School would be a more appropriate description? And if you are going to included Thomas, don't you think you should include Heebner?"

Tom MacWood:

Who that you're aware of has ever written about the so-called "Philadelphia School of Architecture" or for that matter used the alternative description "Pennsylvania School of architecture"? Where are all the places you've seen these two terms in writing?

"Do you think Thomas would be more at home in a California School? Or is it your view that he should be included in both?"

Where in writing or in use has the term "California School of Architecture" come from or been?

[TEPaul]

"Wayne
I've seen the archival information on PV and Fownes, it's at the USGA museum, which is, as far as I know, public information. And TE's talked about it on GCA numerous times."

Tom MacWood:

Then why don't you tell us what it says? And secondly, if you think you've seen it on this website from me or at the USGA why did you ask us what it says or what role Fownes played at PVGC? For instance, do you remember what Fownes had to say about the first hole and green at PVGC? Do you know what he had to say about the 4th hole, about the 9th green etc?

[T_MacWood]

"Then why don't you tell us what it says? And secondly, if you think you've seen it on this website from me or at the USGA why did you ask us what it says or what role Fownes played at PVGC? "

Because I don't believe the keeper or follower of Crump's wishes is a good reason for inclusion into a Philadelphia School of design. If you consider that an architectural contribution, then you ought to included Howard Street as well.

"Who that you're aware of has ever written about the so-called "Philadelphia School of Architecture" or for that matter used the alternative description "Pennsylvania School of architecture"? Where are all the places you've seen these two terms in writing?"

"Where in writing or in use has the term "California School of Architecture" come from or been?"

Are these trick questions? Philadelphia School: Shackelford, Pennsylvannia School: Cornish and Whitten, California School: Tommy or Geoff, I don't recall which first.

[wsmorrison]

"Wayne
I've seen the archival information on PV and Fownes, it's at the USGA museum, which is, as far as I know, public information. And TE's talked about it on GCA numerous times. "

Tom,

I assure you the materials I am referring to are not in the USGA archives.

The Feb 1909 American Golfer wrote of Heebner as "unselfishly devoting his energies in the development of the new White Marsh Country Club, of Philadelphia."  The June 1915 American Golfer wrote of Heebner as "an indefatigable worker during these construction days and Sunnybrook must be under great obligations to him."  Jim Finegan doesn't mention Heebner in any architectural capacity in his excellent history of Philadelphia golf.

Please explain to me how you determined that Heebner merits consideration in a fraternity of golf architects.

What is Howard Street's involvement in Philadelphia area golf architecture.  As far as I've seen, he was a member of Merchantville and played in handicap tournaments.  If that is your criteria, shall we include his wife as well?

We can include John Street and his brother Milton if you like  

[TEPaul]

"Because I don't believe the keeper or follower of Crump's wishes is a good reason for inclusion into a Philadelphia School of design. If you consider that an architectural contribution, then you ought to included Howard Street as well."

My Goodness! I have absolutely zero idea what you're trying to say there. Do you? Firstly, you obviously have no idea what the Fownes information is about and less idea how to analyze the meaning of it regarding an architectural contribution to PVGC---which pretty much is all the so-called "Philly (or) Pennsylvania School of architecture" was all about.

If you feel like coming up with your own definition and description of what the "Philly School" or the "Pennsylvania School" is about by all means go for it. You are pretty good these days at coming up with your own terms and description of  things that have little real meaning in historical fact.

The "Philly School" or alternatively the "Pennsylvania School" (if one includes Pittsburgh's Fownes) as far as I know was a term initially used by Geoff Shackleford. Since I've spoken to and traded info with him for years I merely used his terms in an article I wrote for the "Philadelphia Golfer" and re-wrote for the 2005 USGA US Amateur program. I didn't plagarize what he wrote, I hope---I merely used a term or terms that he may've coined.

To be honest with you the idea of the "Philly School" as being basically a small collection of good friends and occasional playing partners was an idea I got from a remark by Pine Valley's John Ott (as you will see if you read my two articles on the subject). John Ott certainly has an excellent feel for and understanding of Philadelphia golf and it's history and of Merion and PVGC which he belonged to both of for decades.

I'd feel a bit more comfortable reporting on and writing about  a subject like this from his perspective than I would from some character from Ohio who's never even set foot in these places. Your penchant for attempting to redefine from old magazines and newspapers you've just found and that we've  been familiar with for years what the realities and histories are of our area that you've never been part of is the height of both comedy and arrogance to me and others around here.

If you have some issue with what you think is the accuracy of what we both wrote (GeoffShac and I) I have no problem with that. Perhaps you should call the "Philadelphia Golfer" magazine or the USGA and tell them you feel you could've done a better and historically more accurate job of it!  

[TEPaul]

"Are these trick questions? Philadelphia School: Shackelford, Pennsylvannia School: Cornish and Whitten, California School: Tommy or Geoff, I don't recall which first."

No, they're all pretty simple and straight-forward questions. As hard as it must be for you to believe there really isn't a trick or conspiracy or some nefarious campaign in everything I say or ask you. And congratulations, you did remarkably well, for a change, with the answers to some pretty simple questions. At least you answered the question instead of responding to a question with another question.

[TEPaul]

"We can include John Street and his brother Milton if you like."

Don't go there Wayne. I very much doubt PVGC's Howard Street would appreciate the mention of that dark side of his family history at this point!  

[wsmorrison]

I hear you Tom.  I just find it comical at this point that Tom MacWood continues to throw names out there that gives a superficial impression that he must do a great deal of research (he clearly does) and that it must be meaningful (that is clearly not always the case).  

I look forward to learning from Tom the architectural accomplishments of Street, Heebner and other suspects in the ever-growing Philadelphia/Pennsylvania School.

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Although much of what we've been talking about with Tom MacWood on some of these threads may seem to most to be much ado about nothing, ironically it's really inspired me.

It's inspired me to finally sit down and fire off the chapter I've been promising you for about a year on historical perspective in these architectural matters. I'm going to term it something like "From back then looking forward-----From today looking back".

Listening to Tom MacWood and reading some of the things he concludes and writes about those guys and those times I just think more than I ever have before that if most of those old architects back then, like Flynn, could actually read or hear some of the things he thinks and says about them today they could not help but say to themselves;

"Wow, did we really think and say those things they're giving us credit for in 2005? We had absolutely no idea?"



I'm going to fire it off immediately after I cut a few fields. I am a farmer, you know?

[wsmorrison]

YEEEHAAAA!  

Well, to think I'd have Tom MacWood for inspiring this!  Whatever it takes....

I know you'll do a wonderful job on this important aspect of the book.  It is so valuable to have a presentation of history that is based on the perspective of the times and not with today's political correctness or revisions.  There were some uncomfortable and interesting facets of country club life back in the 1920s and 1930s but it is worth discussing them in their true light.  

Get out there on your shiny new Kubota and hit the keyboards when you're done mowing the lower 40.  However, you might want to work on the title a bit after the essay is complete  

[wsmorrison]

"I'm going to term it something like "From back then looking forward-----From today looking back"."

How about "Perspectives From The Golden Age And Of Today" or something?  Well, let's worry about the name after the story is written.  It'll probably come to you during the writing.

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
Are you referring to Fownes' report dated March 3rd 1921?

If you are going to include Fownes in the Philadelphia School of design based upon his involvement with PV after Crump's death, then certainly you should include Street. No one was more instramental than he in preserving and seeing though Crump's dream...Alison and Wilson noted that.

Speaking Alison, should he be included in the fraternity based upon his work at Pine Valley? He did more architecturally at PV than Fownes.

If you are going to include Thomas, why wouldn't you include Heebner based upon his role at Whitemarsh Valley and Sunnybrook? Other than his collaboration with Heebner at Whitemarsh Valley what did Thomas design in Philadelphia?

Do you think Thomas would be more at home in a California School? Or is it your view that he should be included in both?

Where does Frederick Taylor fit into this whole scheme?

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

What is the architectural work that you attribute to Heebner at Whitemarsh Valley and Sunnybrook?  If you only have those magazine articles I would say the evidence is lacking at this time.  

I have a copy of a crude routing map of PV and commentary made by a PV member from Cleveland, Joseph K. Bole, with Howard Street's name on it dated 4/24-25/1919.  Should we include Joseph Bole?

Among other materials, yes, I am looking at the 3/3/1921 letter between Fownes and Alan Wilson.  Fownes was on the committee involved in finishing the course.  Was Street?  What information do you have that indicates Street's work in seeing Crump's dream come to fruition and preserving it?

A portion of Thomas's work should be considered Philadelphia School.  I'm sure the early influences carried over to his future work, but it certainly evolved.  I don't see the point of getting hung up on semantics and compartmentalization like you seem to be.  Why is that?

[wsmorrison]

Why don't you tell me where Frederick Taylor belongs and save us some time with your questions.  Or are you looking for double standards or conspiracies again?

I know that Taylor was involved in construction methods of greens and he patented a putter too I believe.  Did he design the greens he was constructing or reconstructing?  Why don't we put Toomey in there if construction is all the requirement necessary to you.

Did Alison or the others you are suggesting (Colt we know only stayed briefly) live/stay and practice at length in the Philadelphia area?  Did he collaborate?  Maybe you should look at these 2 criteria and think of these as a basis for your determinations.

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
Heebner was the co-designer of Whitemarsh Valley. He oversaw the contruction of Sunnybrook.

"I have a copy of a crude routing map of PV and commentary made by a PV member from Cleveland, Joseph K. Bole, with Howard Street's name on it dated 4/24-25/1919.  Should we include Joseph Bole?"

If you want trivialize Street's contribution to PV, that is your right. Yes Street was on the committee. If I'm not mistaken he took over Crump's position as golf committee chairman after his death, and followed Simon Carr as the club's Secretary. I have articles written by Wilson and others citing Street's role. When Alison wrote about Pine Valley, he notes both Crump and Street, no mention of Fownes.

If a portion of Thomas's work should be included in the Philadelphia School, why not Heebner?

"Did Alison or the others you are suggesting (Colt we know only stayed briefly) live/stay and practice at length in the Philadelphia area?  Did he collaborate?  Maybe you should look at these 2 criteria and think of these as a basis for your determinations."

Did Fownes?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Why don't you just go ahead and describe and define the "Philadlelphia School" or "Pennsylvania School" any old way you want to? Include anyone in it you see fit. Research the hell out of it for ten years, write a five part article about it and its participants and their family histories going back three generations. Knock your sox off!

For us, and apparently for Geoff Shackelford, I think we're all content to refer to it as five friends who either came from or were from Philadelphia in and around the creation of two great golf courses on which all of them collaborated with each other and who were all golf course architects who produced some pretty fine work wherever it was.

If you want to make more out of those terms "Philly" or "Pa" schools please be our guest. Throw anyone into that school you feel like. Turn the damn thing into a college or even a university if you want to. Create a damn matriculation deptartment if you want and then you can keep feeding names into it as you read old magazines and newspapers and conclude all manner of influences and cross-currents. Why don't you try to make an entire golf architectural "movement" or even "era" out of it? Get Alison and Colt into it so you can go international. Throw Hutchinson, Country Life magazine, the A/C Movement or even Pugin, William Morris and John Rushkin in there too. Maybe Frederick Law Olmsted or even Lancelot "Capability" Brown and Gertrude Jeckyl should get honorary mention too! Who was that headmaster of some English school who was the nexus between Hutchinson and all the rest--was it William Price? Throw him into the "Philly School too, for Christ's Sake! We wouldn't want you to miss anyone!  

But frankly I don't think any of us are particularly interested in going along with all that---we're quite satisfied with Crump, Flynn, Thomas , Tillinghast, and Wilson as the so-called "Original Philadelphia School of Golf Architecture".  

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Do you believe this guy? I think the guy is absolutely ODing on the glorification of his own research. We have all your material and more, Tom, but thanks anyway.  

Yeah, you're right---really crummy name for the chapter. Maybe I should just call it--"How to counteract the revisionist historical detritus of a self-proclaimed expert resercher/writer from an Ivory Tower in Ohio".

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne &  TEPaul,

I'm aware of the works of the five fellows who comprised the Philadelphia School, but, I'd be interested in hearing of Howard Street's architectural endeavors.

What courses did he design ?

The same goes for Joseph Bole, what courses did he design ?

And Frederick Taylor ?

And, at Whitemarsh Valley, what work is Thomas's and what work is Heebners ?

If these fellows actually engaged in design concepts that were produced in the form of a golf course I'd be interested in hearing about it.

If they were JUST on committees at clubs that did design or redesign work, I'd imagine that there are thousands more who have served on committees who should get equal billing.

TEPaul,

Weren't you on the design-redesign committee at Gulph Mills ?
Shouldn't you and others on the committee be included in the Philadelphia School ?