[wsmorrison]

"Furthermore, with my new long hair I now look a lot more like Bill Coore, and a lot less like Ben Crenshaw. "

Those clogs will give you away, Tommy.  Long hair or not.  It may be convenient to have the same shoe size as your wife, but you really ought to get your own shoes  

[SPDB]

who are we supposed to be identifying, the man in the white shirt or his giant?

[T_MacWood]

Its the big guy with the stick in #8.

Since this thread has already veered off course, I mights as well add to it.

“I read your Arts and Crafts Movement article a couple of times and very carefully which says the same thing as you did above. My question is who has ever previously called the Arts and Crafts Movement (basically an art and craft, furniture and building architecture reform movement) a reform movement in golf course architecture to the extent that there could legitimately be something called “arts and crafts golf architecture"? I realize you called it that a few years ago in your five part article on this website but my question is who has ever called it that before?”

I believe my essay was the first to refer to it as Arts and Crafts golf architecture, and before the essay, I mentioned it few times on GCA. In fact the genesis of the essay occurred at a lunch I had with Jeff Bauer and Ron Whitten, when the subject came up…you can credit them for inspiring me to write it. It all happened at a Chillies…I want my babyback, babyback, babyback…..

“Can you name any magazine article, newspaper article, book of any other written piece from that time that ever referred to arts and crafts golf architecture or to any influence of the arts and crafts movement on golf course architecture?”

No, nor can I find anything at that time referring to the golden age of golf architecture. We have discussed this before…like many artistic movements, the A&C Movement was identified, its influences recognized and analyzed well after it ended…its not that unusual.

On the other hand, although they did not mention it specifically…you will find reference to A&C theorists and an adoption of A&C philosophies?
 
“And if no one involved in it at that time ever wrote about it or never mentioned it  why would that be?”

See above.

 “If there really was such a reform movement in golf architecture why would noone have ever mentioned it or written about it before this?”

See the answer above….again.


“And finally, would you say that the primary reason you apparently think the bunker restoration at Aronmink was a mistake in not restoring the original multi-bunker sets is because you think that that regional style of J.B. McGovern (apparently) is an indication of a similarity to the individualism, variety and regionalism of the arts and crafts and building architecture reform philosophy?”

No. First of all it wasn’t a restoration…it was a redesign. The golf course of which Ross said at its opening….“I intended to make this course my masterpiece, but not until today did I realize I built better than I knew”….was not restored. IMO the courses bold and unique bunkering scheme are the primary reasons the golf course is historically significant and worthy of faithful restoration. Speculative restoration is a problem IMO. I also believe there is a danger in having Ross’s work homogenized by restoration architects who redo his courses a prototypical style.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

Why don't you cut and paste post #27 over to the other thread you asked me to start and I'll reply over there? I hope this will be an interesting and informative discussion, I think it can be---I think it's a wonderful subject and should be the type of in depth discussion about architecture, its influences and its evolution, we can have on a website like this.

[ian]

I will not go over the great answers that I think are right.

8. The architect is Arthur Conan Doyle and the course was at Jaspar (although Thompson choose a different site accross the river. Doyle's site was near Pyramid Lake). If the person is wrong, Doyle actually did lay out holes at Jaspar.

7. Is definately Bendelow

10. Robert Bruce Harris?

I'm searching for #4 (Drummond?)

[Tom_Doak]

Arthur Conan Doyle laid out a golf course in Canada?

My son will be interested to hear that.  He is a way bigger Sherlock Holmes fan than golf course architecture fan.

[Tyler Kearns]

Tom Doak,

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was a frequent visitor to the area, and conceived of the idea for golf at Jasper in 1914. As Ian noted, his site was located on the shores of Pyramid Lake. The outbreak of World War I dampened enthusiasm for the project, and nothing would come of the idea until 1922, when Scottish professional William Thomson was engaged to ressurect Doyle's concept. It was his opinion that the land was not suitable to yield a course, and so the site along Lac Beauvert was selected. Thomson laid out 9 holes of his 18 hole design, but ultimately, the course would succumb to the plans of Stanley Thompson by 1925.

TK

[TEPaul]

You people think you're good golf architecture researchers??

Well, you stink. Arthur Conan Doyle didn't lay out any damn golf course in Canada-----(somethingorother) Watson did.

[Tyler Kearns]

TEPaul,

I think the idea for golf at Jasper can be attributed to Doyle, however, it was only a dream - and nothing really came of it until after the war. At that stage, a golf professional was hired to lay out the course, not Doyle. That pro, William Thomson built nine holes on a different piece of property, so it is unlikely that Doyle was responsible for the construction of any golf holes.

TK

[SPDB]

Shivas, hold on a quick second...#3 isn't Peter Jans Nat'l?  

Tom - Does the club still exist?

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tom do you want to check Pic No 2?  Both Tom Doak and Paul Turner identified it as Hunstanton.   Given the geographical proximity of both courses is it possible somewhere this has been mislabled?  I've been to both and Brancaster (Royal West Norfolk) starts very flat.  Hunstanton starts by playing diagonally accross a very large bunker that today has shrunk, but it's still large.

[T_MacWood]

Tony
It is definitely the first at Brancaster, I actually had about four or five versions of that picture to choose from...Brancaster was one of the most popular topics in the early golf magazines and the hole was the most photographed.

In his book on the golf courses of the British Isles, Darwin describes how intimidating the opening tee shot is at Brancaster. Was the hole later changed?

Ian got the toughest question (perhaps tied with #4). There is an excellent article on Sir Arthur Conan Doyle at Jasper in one of the back issues of Golf Illustrated. Evidently Doyle befriended at Liutenant-colonel Maynard Rogers during the Boar War in Africa. Some after returning to Canada Rogers was appointed Superintendent of Jasper Park. He invited his friend to Jasper, and this visit that Rogers came up with the idea of having Doyle layout a golf course. According to the story Doyle also struck the first ball. No description of the course....so who knows. The picture is from the article: "Sir AC Doyle, With engineers rod in in hand laying out  the golf course in Jasper Park..."

Seven down, five to go.

[Dave Kemp]

After doing some online research I am going to take a shot #4

Riverside Golf Club - William Drummond

[Mike_Cirba]

Dan,

I wish I looked that good!  He's got a much better finish than I do.  I'd be falling over.

Tom Paul does look a bit like Ben Crenshaw--if Ben smoked about 2 packs a day and wore funny looking clogs.


Mike Cirba,

I appreciate what you mean about more forward tees for better players at par 4 and further back at par 5 for average players.  But look at Flynn's most challenging courses and they all have difficult par 4 finishers:

Shinnecock Hills
Philadelphia Country Club (before the clubhouse moved)
Huntingdon Valley
Boca Raton South
Mill Road Farm
Cherry Hills
Eagles Mere New (417 yards, 120 feet uphill)
Lancaster
Indian Creek
Lehigh


Look at the courses he was influenced by:

Merion East
Pine Valley

Come on, Mike C.  You can have a 5 so many ugly ways on 18 at RGGC.  It cannot be that it is the expected score of a scratch player.  If you walk off with a 5 on 18 at RGGC do you really feel like you played the hole well?  Let alone a scratch player.

Wayne,

I forget the drawing from your house, but was the 18th hole originally captioned with a par number?

Also, did those large mature trees on the right exist at the time the course was built?

Thanks!

[T_MacWood]

Drummond is a very good guess, but its not him. Although the pictured clubhouse is in the Prarie School style, it was built far from the American midwest.

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,

    On those courses you mentioned, did Flynn use a par five or two earlier in the back nine? Part of this has to do with the variety of the holes and what the routing demands to get back to the clubhouse.

[ian]

Tom,

I will need some sort of hint for the clubhouse question. I assumed it was in Chicago, but opening this up really makes it tough. Was he a golf architect or a building architect by reputation.

What are the questions that are not correct?

This will help focus any research required.

[Dave Kemp]

Ian,

Good luck with the clubhouse question.  After striking out with my Drummond guess, and given Tom's response that it is not in the midwest I couldn't get any further.

Hopefully he provides afew more clues....like is it still in the US?  

Dave

[T_MacWood]

He was both architect and golf architect. He is not well known (in this country) as a golf architect, but from what I have seen he was very accomplished in both areas. Admittedly a very tough question.

The question left unanswered are 3, 4, 6, 11 & 12.

[ian]

Tom,
 
Please provide the correct answers for the ones that are right.

Why couldn't you ask what golf architect was involved in the construction of the turf at Yankee Stadium or some other reasonable question (Tucker).

Or the fact that Rudyard Kipling also created a course in Balltleboro Vermont

3. No clue
4. Is he from McKim's firm?
6. is the layout famous now?
11. Westward Ho!
12. Is it one of the heathland quartet?

[T_MacWood]

#4 is not American. #6 is very famous. #11 is from the same era of NGLA, the first links built to combat the rubber-cored ball. #12 is from the heathland quartet.

[ian]

#4 Is it one of Otani , Ueda, Akaboshi, Inoue and Fujita.

[T_MacWood]

Same era, but the other side of the world...their war-time ally.

[ian]

Bernhard Von Limburger (Hoffman and Limburger)

[T_MacWood]

Karl Hoffman.  

That clubhouse is from the Berlin-Wansee club, golf course designed by Colt. Hoffman and von Limburger were partners in the 30's...and it appears Hoffman was the senior partner. Their two most important designs were Cologne-Refrath and Krefeld.

Unfortunately I believe that clubhouse was a war casuality...FLW was very big in Germany.

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