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Paul Richards

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Re:Short List for OFCC South restoration
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2005, 09:44:46 PM »
Patrick

Since Mr. Lavin helped lead Beverly through the restoration process with Ron Prichard, I have little doubt that he will help OFCC point itself in the proper direction for what I hope will be a restoration.  As I mentioned, it is a real 'hidden gem' and it would be wonderful to play it after it has been restored.

 ;)
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short List for OFCC South restoration
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2005, 09:51:32 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for the nice comments.....and the gentle reminder that I really, really, need to update my website! ::)

I will contact Brian White to see if you have some good after photos.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

tlavin

Re:Short List for OFCC South restoration
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2005, 01:25:31 PM »
Mr. Mucci:

Your comments are all welcome and quite on point.  Our committee is having its first meeting tomorrow and the mission statement will likely be hashed out then.  

I would be shocked, quite frankly, if there is any interest in "modernizing" the South Course.  I think there is a general consensus among club members that the North has been modernized enough and that we would like to see the South Course undergo a loving restoration.  Obviously, I think the best way to go about this is to see if the committee has a consensus and then try to retain the "right" architect.  

It seems to me that there is a number of qualified people out there, but the scope of the project, the financial commitment to the project and the timing of the project will all have a lot to do with who we wind up with as our restoration architect.  As a club, we have, for obvious reasons, focused on the North course for the past ten years so it will be interesting if the membership can develop the same passion for restoring the South course.  It doesn't need to be the North course, doesn't need to be as long, as sprawling or as difficult; it just needs to live up to its natural potential.

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short List for OFCC South restoration
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2005, 01:44:25 PM »


Ken Dye has done a lot of work in my area.  Seems to me that Round Hill is his best restoration work.

Steve Mann

Re:Short List for OFCC South restoration
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2005, 02:55:04 PM »
i am surprised not to see jeff mingay's name mentioned.  he is a contributer to this site often and seems to be quite knowledgeable.  
hey, tlavin, give some of the up and coming young guys a chance, they just might surprise you!


Paul Richards

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Re:Short List for OFCC South restoration
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2005, 10:19:42 PM »
Terry

> Our committee is having its first meeting tomorrow and the mission statement will likely be hashed out then.


How did it go at your committee meeting on this?


"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short List for OFCC South restoration
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2005, 01:00:23 PM »
Terry and Jeff,

Is there really enough on the South to restore?  Do you want to give the members two courses of similar quality but different requirements?  Or do you want to maintain one clearly superior, and the other for the less capable members and for a break of pace?

Depending on Mike Stranz's condition, he may be a person to consider.  His work at MPCC-Shore was excellent and may have some applicability to your South project.

The original Shore had some interesting greens, but, for the most part, it was not a very exciting golf course.  The design was certainly not on par with the surroundings, though its relatively flat terrain near 17-Mile Drive and the Pacific can't compare with what is further south towards Pebble Beach.

Stranz's Shore is now a substantive course, with enough slopes and rolls through the green to keep you on your toes.  It is an entirely new course, but I wouldn't call it a modernization.  Its low profile and more subtle feature shaping is suggestive of courses from an earlier time.  Perhaps it is a restoration to what it could have been as opposed to what it was.

Shore, in my opinion, is every bit as challenging and fun to play as its former bigger brother, Dunes.  Though I am sure that the MPCC members have their preferences, I doubt that many would be disappointed if one was tied-up and they had to play the other.  MPCC is more like Winged Foot with two excellent, highly comparable courses than, let say, NCR in Dayton, or the Scarlet and Grey Club in Columbus, with one course clearly much superior than the other.

It all depends on what your members are after.  To me, it seems that OF-South could benefit from a similar approach.

 

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short List for OFCC South restoration
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2005, 03:05:51 PM »
Lou; Have you played OFCC South?  There's a lot of golf course there and it already has substantial differences from OFCC North.  That's probably a result of the different original architects but the reason doesn't matter.  Proper use of the existing framework could yield a very good golf course.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short List for OFCC South restoration
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2005, 03:33:20 PM »
SL,

I played it last fall with Jeff Goldman, a day or two after you joined us for a drink at the Glen Club.  You are right about being substantially different than its stronger, longer brother.

Personally, I was not highly impressed with OF-South, though some of the greens were interesting.  While it is hard to opine based on one round at each course, I doubt that I would play the South course more than once or twice out of 10 rounds at OF.

If I was a one man committee, I would look and price all alternatives.  There could very well be enough on the site to make South substantially different, but competitive with the North.  I think that a club with a large, active membership is much better off with two comparable courses than with one heads and shoulders superior than the other.  In my estimation, that's how OF is today.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short List for OFCC South restoration
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2005, 03:37:50 PM »
Lou; I agree that OFCC North is substantially better.  However there are some great holes on South and with some work it can be very good.  I suppose I just don't see the need for a complete redo.

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short List for OFCC South restoration
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2005, 08:11:30 PM »
Lou,

I'm going to do a separate thread on the restoration/renovation question, but suffice it to say that I've done a little research and major changes were made to the course throughout the 1920s and thereafter, leaving the question, what to restore?

I agree with Shelly that there is a lot of golf course there.  In fact, even in its present state it is not an easy course, with a course rating of 72.4 and slope of 136 from 6600 yards.  It is 5800 yards from the forward tees (there are only 2 sets), which is a lot of course for many women.  Therefore, I think the course needs is a set of forward tees to bring design elements on a number of holes into play for them.  IT is also popular.  All but the lowest handicaps usually play whichever course is least crowded.

Technology appears to have made the course too short in many places for the best players.  Thus, I also think a set of back tees would also be a good idea.  I'm told that an appropriate set could bring the course to a little over 7000 yards.  

As to fundamental changes, I know you didn't like it much, but IMHO it has 4 outstanding holes - 6, the 360 yd par 4 with the volcano/fortress green with huge falloffs (and where you hit it in "the kitchen" 30 feet below the green); 7, the roller-coaster par 5 with the hugely sloping greensite (I don't think you liked the blind second shot); 9, 435 par 4 which was originally the 18th hole of our old course 2, and resembles the old 18 at Oak Hill with the green set back from the hill; and 12, the 210 par-3 with the green perched on top of a hill and the possibility of putting off the front of the green and watching the ball roll 25 feet down to the bottom of the hill.

The course also has several very good holes, being, IMHO, 1, 2, 10, 11, 14, 17 and 18 (the last marred mostly by the fact that it resembles 9 too much).  At most, new tees and redone bunkers for some of these.

Given that I think 11 holes are very good or great, it is hard to justify any kind of complete redo.  I hope that any changes to these holes beyond necessary maintenance efforts (including rebuilding very old bunkers) and some tees to these holes would be very carefully considered.
 
There are also several pretty unique holes people love or hate, like 5, 8, 15, 16.  Most of these holes have unusual greens or odd slopes, and certain changes might be considered.  For instance, 5 used to be a par-4 and now is 215 yd par 3 with a very unusual, sloping green (to the left front) that can't really be seen and isn't really on the right angle to the tee.  Moving the tee to the left would increase visibility, bring a bunker into play and give players options.  A forward tee could also be built on the same line.  

Finally, there are holes that could use help, mostly set in the flatter part of the course.  3 is a par-3 that doesn't do much.  It was originally completely blind, with the green hidden behind a hill, but was redone 1925 because the members then hated it.  Now, it is too far from a creek to bring that in play, and has one of the flatter greens on the course.  4 is a slightly uphill, straight 500 yard par 5, where you can't see what your aiming at on the 2nd shot.  It has a good fairway extension green with a big slope to the right.  When the greens are fast (you should have seen it this sunday), you must be on the correct side of the fairway to stay on the green.  However, until you get to the green not much happens.  13, a shorter par 4, is similar, being a flat hole with a sloping fairway extension green.

Given the bones to the course I see, I would fight any sort of complete redo.  Killing 6, 7, 9, 11, 12, 17 and others would be a shame.  One other note.  The greens here are generally significantly firmer and faster than those on the North, possibly because they've been there so long, and the North ones were planted with L93 in 2001 or so.  Tons of fun to play.

Obviously, I welcome thoughts from anyone who'se played the place (Shel, when are you coming out again??).  THIS MEANS YOU TOO LOU!

Jeff Goldman
That was one hellacious beaver.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short List for OFCC South restoration
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2005, 12:59:22 AM »
Jeff Goldman,

Seems like you have a pretty good idea of what you want done.  Does it reflect the wants and needs of the membership at large?  To me, that's the key.

Have the committee send me a RT airline ticket, and put me up for two to three nights at the club with full dining room priviliges, and I'll be happy to provide you with a full, detailed report of what I think should be done.

I do agree that the course has a few very good holes, but there is just not enough detail and length there right now to make it very compelling.  On the other hand, if it is as popular with the members as you say, why mess with it?

I also agree with you that some shorter tees should be added for the ladies, young juniors, and super seniors.  Extending the back tees to 7,000 yards should more than suffice for even the lowest handicap members.        

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short List for OFCC South restoration
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2005, 09:13:17 AM »
Jeff; I'll come out anytime as long as its part of a home and home.  I'll give you my thoughts as well and it won't cost a plane ticket but I'm afraid you'll get what you pay for.  Better you pick a sympathetic architect you respect and rely on his vision.  Give me a call.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short List for OFCC South restoration
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2005, 01:28:49 PM »
Mr. Solow,

Or may I call you Shellie?

A plane ticket for my ample experience is an unheard of bargain.  Have you spent any time in the kitchen?  How familiar are you with Jeff Goldman?  How much training do you have in peeling back the many layers of pathology from a troubled mind?  Have you acquired a feel for the club's pulse?

Okay, to get up to Chicago again, I'll drop my demand for coach fare on American Airlines and agree to prepaid passage on the back of a turnip truck running up there directly during the month of June.  You got to admit, that's a hell of a deal even if the club ends up with a neo-Fazio on the cheap faux design.  

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short List for OFCC South restoration
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2005, 02:21:51 PM »
Lou; I have been called worse.  As for Mr. Goldman, I was the first to play golf with him among those on this site and I find him to be no more twisted than most of its denizens.  Finally, the thought of you on the back of a turnip truck is almost worth turning you loose on OFCC.  Maybe Barney could pick someone to write the story.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short List for OFCC South restoration
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2005, 07:06:56 PM »
Okay.  I'll just call you SL then.

Many years ago I did some real estate work for a bank that was about to be closed by the FDIC.  The president of this small commercial institution, a rather rotund individual from east Texas had never previously held a higher position in banking than head cashier.  He had been brought in the year before as a "turn-around" specialist.  He didn't get much of a salary, but had a fantastic incentive package, at least on paper.

It didn't this chap too long, perhaps six months, to figure out that he had been setup by the well-known founding family to take the rap for the bank's failure (which included a number of insider and related loans that he innocently renewed).

Despite all he was facing, he kept a pretty good attitute, finally admitting that he had been had.  His comments, partially laughing at himself, have stuck with me for some 10+ years.  He said something to the effect that the bank's founders not only considered him to be borderline dull, but so much so that they thought he had hitchhiked into town because he didn't merit a ride on the back of the turnip truck.  Obviously, the man was introspective, and had the ability to laugh at himself.

I am not, and I now want an open-ended first-class ticket on AA if I am to provide guidance to the OFCC-South renovation committee.    

 

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short List for OFCC South restoration
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2005, 10:04:10 PM »
Lou,

While I am on the committee studying the issue, I am still a relatively new member, and other members of long standing on the committee have a far better sense of the club, its traditions and the members (though I probably now know more about changes to the course throughout its history than most).  A few were even on the committee back in 1989-1991.  Therefore, for the most part I'm going to listen and ask a few questions.  So while I'm giving my honest opinions here, who knows what's going to happen.  

It's true that Shel was the first GCA person I golfed with, and he is significantly responsible for my presence at OFCC.   Also knows a hell of a lot more about golf architecture, club politics and, maybe importantly, bankruptcy than I every will.  When you get back here, you should see his place, Briarwood, which is terrific (the only reason I didn't try to convince him to put me on the membership list was that the club is located North of Chicago, and driving on the Edens Expy a lot would cause me to sell my car and take up tennis).  

Also, as I never tire of repeating, I set the record for putts per GIR for my round there.  I hit one green, and made the putt.  :D  
« Last Edit: May 05, 2005, 10:05:03 PM by Jeff Goldman »
That was one hellacious beaver.