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PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Tom Doak a golf architectural genius.....
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2005, 12:45:51 PM »
fwiw, genius:  "an exceptional natural capacity of intellect"
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

John_McMillan

Re:Is Tom Doak a golf architectural genius.....
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2005, 01:19:12 PM »
fwiw, genius:  "an exceptional natural capacity of intellect"

If it's a "nature vs nurture" distinction, it's especially hard to answer.  From his time working for Pete Dye, caddying in Scotland, and touring well-designed golf courses, I'm not sure if anyone has worked harder at becoming an architect than Doak.  

TEPaul

Re:Is Tom Doak a golf architectural genius.....
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2005, 02:39:08 PM »
Alrighteee then, it seems the feeling on this board of architectural analysts, architectural eggheads and architectural weirdos and wingnuts is that Tom Doak may not be an architectural genius but that he's perspired more to become a good archtiect than anyone else has!   ;)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2005, 02:39:42 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Tom Doak a golf architectural genius.....
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2005, 04:09:12 PM »
Tom P,
Isn't this the same group of "analysists, eggheads and weirdos" that thinks there are only a few great courses in the world?

Of course he is.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Tom Doak a golf architectural genius.....
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2005, 05:24:53 PM »
Ok, since I've been labeled a Tom Doak Butt Boy a time or two in the past, I'll be the first to REALLY sing the praises of the man.

Mr. Doak's resume is becoming as impressive as any ever to design a golf course.

Pacific Dunes
Cape Kidnappers
Barnbougle Dunes
soon to be finished Sebonac
soon to be built Ballyneal.

Of course he has Lost Dunes, Texas Tech and the two Stonewalls to fill out the resume, not to mention a lot of other stuff.

But those first five courses, (and yes, and know many will talk a bunch of junk about me speaking of two courses that are not even built yet) are flat out awesome.  

Doak is wise enough to know that the worth of any leader is the caliber of the talent he surrounds himself.  I'd say that makes him quite intelligent.

Doak understands that a great course is one that addresses all calibers of players.

Doak understands the history and traditions of the game.

Doak understands that a golf course must slip seamlessly into the existing environment.  Many of his courses look timeless, already, like they were dropped in from the Golden Era itself.

And all the while he does it quite humbly, taking the time to chat with us here in golfclubatlas.

Now, genius is an awfully strong word.  I imagine that the humble Doak is quite dismayed with this thread and it's no wonder he has not chimed in here, although I bet he is paying attention ;)  I always prefer to apply the genius label to dead guys, because then they are not burdened with the notion.

Come the time Mr. Doak starts taking his dirt nap, I believe in my heart of hearts that his name will go down in history as one of the best to ever design and build courses.  

Until then, however, I bet he'd prefer to be considered in that elite company along with C & C, etc...and prefer to stay away from calling himself a genius

 
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Tom Doak a golf architectural genius.....
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2005, 05:40:31 PM »
Is he merely a genius, or an actual GCA savant?

I heard he designed Pacific Dunes on the back of a napkin in 35 seconds.

Michael,

Stone Eagle looks like it might belong in that top list, given the limitations of a desert site.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Tom Doak a golf architectural genius.....
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2005, 05:42:42 PM »

Michael,

Stone Eagle looks like it might belong in that top list, given the limitations of a desert site.
I would not be surprised, and I did not forget about that project, I just hate desert golf.
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Tom Doak a golf architectural genius.....
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2005, 05:45:01 PM »
Michael,

I agree with your response, although I don't him personally. However, when all is said and done I believe you have cemented your "position" as President of the Tom Doak Butt Boy Society!

BTW, I find Tom's responses to this forum are usually very intelligent sounding...I think that's an affirmative vote!

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Is Tom Doak a golf architectural genius.....
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2005, 05:50:48 PM »


Michael Dugger

You make quite a compelling case.  Sorry to say but I have never played a Tom Doak course.  Out of the one's you have played how would you rank them in preference?

rgkeller

Re:Is Tom Doak a golf architectural genius.....
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2005, 06:15:47 PM »
>>soon to be finished Sebonac<<

If it turns out great, Sebonack will be a Doak masterpiece.

If just another rich guy's course, another Nicklaus failure.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Tom Doak a golf architectural genius.....
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2005, 06:16:01 PM »
The fact that Michael Dugger and I both live a half day's drive from Pacific Dunes may have something to do with our mutual opinions of his work.

Michael, I haven't forgotten about taking you out to Pumpkin soon...I hurt my back recently, plus they are aerating Sunday.  Let's shoot for mid-June.

Hamilton,

I realize you asked Michael, but if you live in North America, Pacific Dunes is probably the top priority.  Barnbougle Dunes is supposedly comparable.


TEPaul

Re:Is Tom Doak a golf architectural genius.....
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2005, 10:46:11 PM »
"I heard he designed Pacific Dunes on the back of a napkin in 35 seconds.;

JohnK:

I don't know about that but I can tell you when I told him out there one time that I wasn't sure where I was on Pacific Dunes at particular times he did draw the routing on a paper napkin in about 35 seconds. That napkin I'm keeping in a safe place.  :)

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Tom Doak a golf architectural genius.....
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2005, 02:18:28 PM »
The fact that Michael Dugger and I both live a half day's drive from Pacific Dunes may have something to do with our mutual opinions of his work.




Mr. Kirk,

It matters not what I believe, in the eyes of Mr. Hearst, whatever position I may take he will always take the opposite.  

There was a time when I could not let a sleeping dog die, today Hearst has shown that he is the true "bitterman of gca."

Congrats, Hearst, I hope you are enjoying your Walter Travis design.
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Is Tom Doak a golf architectural genius.....
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2005, 04:56:01 PM »

Dugger

All I asked is that you somehow explain to me your preference.  I have only seen a little of Tom. D restoration work as he does have relationships with a few clubs.

DMoriarty

Re:Is Tom Doak a golf architectural genius.....
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2005, 06:52:49 PM »
This is one of the most uncomfortable, embarrassing, and pointless threads in the history of gca.com.




wsmorrison

Re:Is Tom Doak a golf architectural genius.....
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2005, 07:01:29 PM »
Tom Doak's restoration and original design work at Atlantic City Country Club is exceptionally good.  That is a wonderful course that few discuss. It is in Matt Ward's home state and I cannot recall him mentioning it.  Matt, quit talking up Forsgate so much  ;)

TEPaul

Re:Is Tom Doak a golf architectural genius.....
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2005, 08:00:30 PM »
"This is one of the most uncomfortable, embarrassing, and pointless threads in the history of gca.com."

A remark like that coming from a hyper defensive, ultra thin-skin like you Moriarty, shouldn't surprise anyone!  ;)

ForkaB

Re:Is Tom Doak a golf architectural genius.....
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2005, 04:10:46 AM »
"Can't wait to see it. Rare is the course that everyone that sees it absolutely raves about. Must be pretty cool."

It certainly is and one of the best things about it is Rich Goodale didn't think it was that good or didn't understand it. Anything that Rich Goodale doesn't think is very good is bound to be really sophisticated and world class.

Can't let TEP get away with such twaddle!

I'm on record as saying that PD is one of the very best new courses built that I have played.  Possibly not THE best, but that is just a matter of opinion.  I'm also on record as saying that these sort of judgements are very tentative in the early years of a course.  As with all things, time will tell.

Now, go back to your room, Tommy!

TEPaul

Re:Is Tom Doak a golf architectural genius.....
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2005, 05:17:43 AM »
"Can't let TEP get away with such twaddle!"

Rich:

A twaddle??

Well, in that case, I stand corrected, and chastened, I might add. I will go to my room. Please inform me when I can come out again.

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