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TEPaul

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2005, 11:49:46 AM »
Mike:

Don't forget Doak and Hanse. They have a pretty good list of restorations and a pretty good list of new construction projects too. I don't know if Forse or Prcihard have been offered much in new construction but they sure are busy these days with restorations. Others I can think of who do both---Stephen Kay, Brain Silva and Art Hills, maybe even Hurdzan and Fry.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2005, 11:52:31 AM »
From my observations, Mr. Jones' large greens and his bunkering flair will remain the common thread in any restoration work. But, I suspect many of his courses (the lesser known) may be re-designed completely. Mr. Jones left some solid trademarks, but he also was not consistent during the 1960s and 1970s. I suspect this is because he had loads of people working for him during that time and what resulted were a lot of different approaches.

At the Wigwam we have struggled with some verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry long tees. It is true: They make a golf hole look very narrrrrrrrrrrrrrow!
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

T_MacWood

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2005, 12:46:58 PM »
Ian
My point was Prichard's decision to concentrate on restoring Ross was a good business decision. Likewise, IMO, if someone did the same with RTJ, it would be another good business move.

I admire the architects who do the research as well.

Scott
Do you know of any old photographs of Midvale? If so, how would you describe the bunkering style.

TEPaul

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2005, 12:59:49 PM »
Tom MacWood:

I don't believe I've ever seen another architect who does the type of restoration reserach Ron Prichard does and seemingly has for a very long time. It's not hard to tell with anyone who knows him or has even heard him speak how interested he is and has always been in the research and history of some of these older courses, particularly Ross courses. There was a time when Ron was notoriously aggressive with clubs to restore things exactly despite club perceptions of playability or maintenance concerns. He seems to have mellowed a bit in that though. I've heard a number of things about Ross from Prichard that are very interesting. But the best education of all is to spend time out on projects with Ron with his research material in his hand. He's always more than happy to have people who are really interested in this type of thing come out there---and I'll guarantee you there is a lot to learn out there. But for raw research for a long time Prichard has always been on top, in my book.

T_MacWood

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2005, 01:14:40 PM »
TE
No doubt he knows as much about Ross as anybody.

Of Prichard's Ross restoration jobs of which you are familiar...which projects...in your opinion...are some of the best examples of his research strength?

TEPaul

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2005, 02:58:39 PM »
The one I'm most familiar with is Aronomink, and around here Jeffersonville and Riverton.

These days the ones who seem to be really competing with him for true interest in research and digging it up, though, are Ron Forse and Jim Nagle. Of course, Gil Hanse and Jim Wagner are certainly very interested in research on restoration projects too.

However, not a single one of them seems to have ever gone so far as to just assume that everything original that was ever removed should be put back exactly as it once was---at least not without first both analyzing why it may've been altered in the first place and also how well it would work today. But the one who probably came closest to that in some restorations I'd have to say was Ron Prichard.

Of course, I am mindful of the fact that there are some on this website, seemingly including you, who may think that all original architecture and all original architectural features should be put back precisely how they once were. I've just never seen that happen with restorations or any of these architects who've ever done restorations and if anyone would spend some time with them in the field or with clients it's not hard to see why. But some do the very best they can with what and whom they work with, in my opinion, and in some of the best restorations it shows.

An inhouse restoration such as NGLA's though, at least as far as it's gone to date is pretty exact, at least that seems to be the club's intent.

A Flynn course, the Cascades, is interested in restoring the course, and they appear to want to really stay true to Flynn. There are four RTJ greens out there. One is definitely getting restored back to Flynn but the other three are a question simply because at least one of them appears to work better than the original Flynn green did.

What would you say to those questions if you were a restoration architect? Would you try to analyze if the RTJ greens work better than the Flynn greens or vice-versa or would you just forego trying to analyze that and simply put everything back to Flynn just because that's the way it once was?

If you were a restoration architect would you have recommended restoring the Ross holes on my course that Perry Maxwell redesigned just because they aren't original Donald Ross?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2005, 03:11:38 PM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2005, 03:11:24 PM »
"The one I'm most familiar with is Aronomink, and around here Jeffersonville and Riverton."

What specifically about his research (of these projects) put Prichard in a class above the others IYO?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2005, 03:14:07 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2005, 03:16:48 PM »
"What about his research of these projects that put Prichard in a class above the others IYO?"

A much greater dedication to do research and find the research material than I've seen from any other architect or restoration architect (until recently when I see others really ramping up in that effort). It really impressed me the lengths Prichard was willing to go to track down research material and information. Of course he starts with a very solid base of knowledge, particularly on Donald Ross.

T_MacWood

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2005, 03:20:52 PM »
"What about his research of these projects that put Prichard in a class above the others IYO?"

A much greater dedication to do research and find the research material than I've seen from any other architect or restoration architect (until recently when I see others really ramping up in that effort). It really impressed me the lengths Prichard was willing to go to track down research material and information.

What are some of the more interesting examples?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2005, 03:21:28 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2005, 03:41:32 PM »
"What are some of the more interesting examples?"

Of his knowledge of Ross or his dedication to do research on restorations?

T_MacWood

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2005, 03:45:44 PM »
Of his much greater dedication to do research and find the research material...interesting examples of extraordinary research on those projects you mentioned.

TEPaul

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2005, 11:29:05 PM »
...interesting examples of extraordinary research on those projects you mentioned."

Tom:

I'm not sure about it but it seems you might be referring to Aronimink's restoration. If so, we've definitely been over that one before. Ron Prichard did a good deal of research on that restoration and Ron and the club had a decision to make---eg to restore to Ross's own bunker drawings or restore to bunkers that may've been foreman J.B.McGovern's.  

They chose to restore the bunkers of Aronimink to Ross's own drawings and it seems that decision and that restoration has been really well recieved.

The only person I'm aware of who thinks that was a mistake is you---someone who's never even seen Aronimink.

Although you sometimes accuse me of changing the subject I believe the only real reason you advocate the restoration of those multi-set bunkers that may've been McGovern's is because you believe that regional style in architecture is much of the interest in architecture because regional styles were the philosophy of the Arts and Crafts Movement that you believe was such an influence on golf architecture of the Golden Age that you believe that "Golden Age" architecture should be relabeled "Arts and Crafts" architecture. (a suggestion you made in your Arts and Crafts article).

Of course, that may be your opinion but on Aronimink I don't know that there's anyone who agrees with you about Aronimink's restoration and on the influence of the Arts and Crafts movement on Golden Age architecture, I, for one, don't believe any intelligent architecture analyst should agree with your contention that the Arts and Crafts Movement had an influence on Golden Age architecture to the exent it should be relabeled Arts and Crafts architecture.

Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion on these things but I hardly think any logicial mind would agree with someone's opinion on a restoration like Aronimink's who's never even seen the golf course over an architect who's been doing this kind of thing for about 30 years who had all the research information and more at hand that someone like you did.

I realize even all that will probably never have any influence on your opinion that Ron Prichard and the club made the wrong restoration decision. The point is that the restoration is considered successful using Ross's drawings and there doesn't seem to be anyone I can see who believes it should have been done differently---other than you who for some reason may think he has more research information on Aronimink than Prichard or the club had.

A lot of research went into that decision and that restoration even if you may not think so.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2005, 11:33:48 PM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2005, 11:51:50 PM »
"A lot of research went into that decision and that restoration even if you may not think so."

What are some interesting examples of his research that places him in a research catagory above the others?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2005, 11:53:36 PM by Tom MacWood »

Scott Witter

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2005, 03:35:23 PM »
Tom Mac:

When I was working for the club about four years ago, I did a considerable amount of research digging through archives the club had as well as the golf course superintendent.  Prior to digging, however, I only had to walk the halls in the club and study the many rich historical photographs hanging in room after room.  In many cases, it is difficult to orient yourself since there were few trees, but the bunkering style that is consistent throughout all photos is distinctively Stanley Thompson and very old school with sharp mounding, blown out edges and wrinkles everywhere that make your mouth water.

At that time and currently, the course maintains about 72 bunkers, but historically, and this can certainly be seen in the photos, the course had approximately 120 bunkers of all irregular shapes, sizes and depths, giving the course a real flair and dripping with character.  With this in mind, I am interested to see what Rees suggestions are and if the club agrees with him and follows through.

This led me to think that even though RTJ may have been onsite during construction, Thompson apparently gave him very little rope on his first "solo" effort.  This is why I tend to think it is a bit misleading to say that it is an RTJ course rather than ST.

Nevertheless, identifying with RTJ seems to make the club happy!

TEPaul

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2005, 08:30:01 PM »
Tom MacW:

When I mentioned that Ron Prichard seemed to be more research oriented than others I can only speak about the restoration projects I spent time on site on in any way which only includes about five restoration architects. It just seemed to me that Ron was always digging for information and pretty much had everything there was to have and he's the only architect on a restoration project that seemed to have it with him in the field most all tha time. I'm particularly speaking of the Aronimink project. I was also very interested how he explained that field drawings sometime didn't exactly fit into the natural topography the way they were drawn and took some interpretation to get the playablility of the drawn and text dimensions right on the particular topography on which they were placed.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2005, 08:32:58 PM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2005, 10:17:32 PM »
TE
Strange you should single out Aronimink as an example since it was based more upon speculation than many of his other projects, and was not a restoration.

T_MacWood

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2005, 06:55:47 AM »
Scott
Interesting info. RTJ wrote about this project in his last book, I recall he said it was a collaborative effort. Early RTJ designs are quite similar to Stanley Thompson in style. It will be interesting to see what you end up with...after  Rees is done.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2005, 08:05:04 AM by Tom MacWood »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2005, 07:48:30 AM »
Tom MacW -

Is P'tree an example of the good RTJ or the bad RTJ?

An aspect of RTJ's career that has not been discussed is his work in the 50's and 60's where he was hired to tone down Golden Age designs. (Anyone but me see the rich irony here?) Certainly that was why he was hired at Ponte Vedra. Their Strong course was deemed too strong for vacationers. Was that one of the reasons he was hired to redo Aroniminck? I think he also redid some of the Alison at Sea Island (the old Seaside nine). For the same reasons would be my guess.

Are there other examples?

Bob

TEPaul

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2005, 07:49:34 AM »
"TE
Strange you should single out Aronimink as an example since it was based more upon speculation than many of his other projects, and was not a restoration."

Tom:

You continue to mince words and split hairs about Aronimink and it's recent "Ross restoration" and I'm sure you'll continue to do so. The fact is the fairway bunker project of Aronimink was a most unuusual one as most all the fairway bunkers had been removed and graded over in a number of cyles of modern bunker redesigns in the Modern Age.

As I'm sure you know by now the question for Prichard and the club was who actually did the fairway bunkers of Aronimink either originally or shortly after the course opened. Prichard and the club had some of the best Ross fairway bunker field drawings in hand and a situation where no one was sure that McGovern had not taken liberties and changed the fairway bunker schemes on his own--(as he apparently had done at Jeffersonville (where Ross was apparently never on site)) as well as a few other regional courses where he was Ross's foreman.

The fairway bunker scheme that was perhaps McGovern's were sets of twos and threes where Ross's field drawings called for singles. Among other things there was a question of maintaining approximately 80 bunkers instead of over 200 but apparently that's a situation someone like you who's never even been to Aronimink and has nothing to do with it couldn't care less about---and since it doesn't cost you a thing one can understand why you'd not even want to consider such a thing.

But the fact is both the club and Prichard wanted a "Ross restoration" of their fairway bunkers and the decision was made to use the Ross drawings because at least they were sure they really were Ross's!

It is possible that the club created something on the course that was never originally built but again at least they were Ross's own.

You may think one can be sure that Ross approved those mulit-set bunkers but the fact is you can be no more sure about that than Aronimink or Prichard could---and probably a lot less sure than they could.

The fact is you may be the only one who believes those muliti-set fairway bunkers that may have been intially built should have been restored.

And then, of course, one wonders why you think that. Would that have made the Aronimink fairway bunker restoration or the course better? And if you think so how would you know if you've never even been there? My supposition is that you think that because of your dedication to this idea of the regional philosophy of the Arts and Crafts movement. It doesn't seem to be a stretch to asssume you think that even if those bunkers were McGovern's idea that that is a neat and interesting "regional" architectural application---again, along the lines of the regional philosophy of the Arts and Crafts Movement (a philosophy you seem to think was so influential or prevalent in the "Golden Age" of golf architecture that you actually suggested (in your A&C article) the "Golden Age" should be renamed or relabeled the "Arts and Crafts" era of golf design ;) ).

But the fact remains that Aronimink wanted Ross fairway bunkers not the possibility of McGovern fairway bunkers, and, again, they did have Ross fairway bunker drawings for Aronimink in hand (literally in Prichard's hand while out there). It was not as if they went out and found that fairway bunker look on some other golf course.

I realize you think that was a mistake but you appear to be the only one who thinks that and I doubt the club or anyone else really cares what you think since you have nothing to do with the club nor have you ever even seen it in person. Even if you'd been part of the decision making process I doubt they would have taken you seriously since you knew no more than they did then----nor do you know more than they do now (although apparently you may think you do---for some odd reason).
« Last Edit: May 02, 2005, 07:56:39 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2005, 08:06:35 AM »
"Was that one of the reasons he was hired to redo Aroniminck?"

BobC:

I would seriously doubt Tom MacWood has any earthly idea why Aronimink had RTJ redesign parts of their golf course and most all their fairway bunkers, even if he might think he does and might be willing to offer his speculations on that subject.

The fact is there're still a number of people around Aronimink who had a hand in the decisions of the club back then---one being the current president who's back for about the fourth time.

The reasons the club had RTJ (and a few others) redesign their Ross course back then is really no different than a number of other courses who did the same thing back then---they thought it was an improvement on what they had. And I can pretty much guarantee you that making the course easier was not a goal they had in mind back then. But those redesign decisions are ones it took the club a number of years (decades really) to regret---not the least reason being that after those cycles of redesign Aronimink began to sink precipitously in the rankings which definitely upset the golf club.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2005, 08:09:39 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2005, 08:16:47 AM »
Bob
I'd don't know if Peachtree is good or bad...what do you think?

It is definitely historic RTJ and historic golf architecture. It was also of his early period, when IMO he showed more originality, more flair and less formula.

There are lots of examples of his unfortunate redesign work (Burning Tree, Milwaukee, ANGC, GCGC, Broadmoor, and Pinehurst #4 are some others)...do you think that should have a bearing on how we evaluate his original designs?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2005, 08:17:16 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2005, 08:30:42 AM »
"There are lots of examples of his unfortunate redesign work (Burning Tree, Milwaukee, ANGC, GCGC, Broadmoor, and Pinehurst #4 are some others)...do you think that should have a bearing on how we evaluate his original designs?"

Not that the question was addressed to me but I think that's an excellent question and point. Personally, I couldn't see why the things RTJ did in redesigning should have any analytical influence on his new construction---even if neither RTJ nor any redesigner of any era ever tried to actually stay in character with the original architect of the courses they were being asked to redesign back then.

T_MacWood

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2005, 08:32:44 AM »
TE
If I'm not mistaken Dick Wilson was brought in first to redesign Aronimink prior to the '62 PGA. Trent Jones was engaged in the 1980's...prior to another scheduled major championship, which was eventually moved to a new club (I believe) because of some kind of controversy surrounding membership policies.

TEPaul

Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2005, 09:16:52 AM »
Tom:

It seems that Aronimink brought in the most popular redesigning architects of those time every 10-15 years ('61, '78, '89) in the "redesign" era of the 1960s, 1970 and 1980s---Wilson, the Fazios and RTJ. Those times probably corresponded to their major tournaments or attempts to get them. The last one was the PGA, I believe, that fell apart over the controversy over the fall-out of the Shoal Creek affair. I remember that last one where golf's organizations, the USGA and the PGA of America basically decreed that any club on their rotas must have a black or minority member. Aronimink basically said they had no problem with that but they would not be forced to just jump some minority member candidate over others on their list of member-candidates and basically dropped the PGA themselves after pumping a couple of million into the club in preparation for the tournament. A massively enhanced practice range was obviously a large part of that. Luckily, thouugh, throughout those three redesign waves the original Ross greens of Aronimink which are really good were never really touched.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2005, 09:18:10 AM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Robert Trent Jones man
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2005, 09:29:14 AM »
Tom MacW -

I think P'tree is a pivotal course in the history of gca. It was the first big budget course to be built after WWII and a huge deal at the time. Life magazine did a four page spread at its opening. It marked the return of golf and it made RTJ's career.

At P'tree you can almost see RTJ battling with himself (i) to respect his Golden Age training/mentors, and (ii) to move on to something different. It is a very odd course in that respect. It marks, I believe, RTJ's transition into "modern" era. After P'tree, he never looked back.

The first two holes are a case in point. The 1st is a wonderfully strategic, shortish par 4. My favorite hole on the course. It could have been designed by Thompson. The second is a big, tough par 5 with water surrounding a small green. In the few yards from the 1st green to the 2nd tee, it's as if you have travelled 25 years from a Thompson hole circa 1930 to a hole by the inventor of the Monster Course circa 1955.

There are several other places on the course where the same clash of cultures jumps out of the ground.  


TEP -

I might put it a little differently. Most redesigns done by RTJ were motivated by a desire to "modernize" the course. Committee minutes tend to read that way. But what they really meant was they wanted an "improved" course. Back then "modern" and "improved" were pretty much interchangeable concepts.

It's only now, some 50 or 60 years on, that we have begun to question whether "modern" means "improved".  That's not to pin blame on anyone. That's just how people thought at that time.

If RTJ had a genius, it was not golf design. Rather it was playing to this conflation of "to modernize" and "to improve". He exploited it consciously, often and to the hilt.

Bob  
« Last Edit: May 02, 2005, 09:32:40 AM by BCrosby »