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ForkaB

Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2005, 06:22:44 PM »
No mas, compadres.  Let's continue this discussion after I''ve played Seminole and you guys have played Doronch.  OK? :)

JESII

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Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2005, 06:43:00 PM »
No mas, compadres.  Let's continue this discussion after I''ve played Seminole and you guys have played Doronch.  OK? :)

Sounds good Rich,

Just out of curiosity, does that comment reveal that you feel we are saying the routing at Seminole is superior to any other? Is it not possible that Dornoch has a "genius" routing as well? My apologies if any of my comments were offensive because that was not the intent.

I have inquired several times on here as to what exactly "routing" is (see recent 'genius...or happenstance' thread) and what makes a good "routing" because I truly did/do not understand all of the components. By thinking through the question Pat asked in the opening post I began to recognize what "routing" might mean and what great "routing" could be.


TEPaul

Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2005, 08:53:54 PM »
I guess I'm not too clear on what Pat is trying to say about Seminole--its routing is responsible for the course holding some kind of cumulative value throughout 18 holes not matter the wind direction? I don't know that I'd say that's true and I've played that course in all kinds of wind conditions and directions over about thirty years. I've never exactly thought about it but a north wind may be the hardest on that course and the prevailing South/southeast wind is probably the easies to score in.

But if for some reason it's true that the course holds its cumulative score value (or whatever it is Pat's saying) no matter the wind direction I'm not so sure I'd said that's any kind of example of brilliance or genius on anything. I see nothing wrong with a course being much harder from a particular wind direction. That simply adds over-all variety from wind direction to wind direction. I see nothing wrong with a course if it creates a sort of basic wide scoring spectrum generally depending on the wind direction.

There's no question that Shinnecock plays harder into a north wind and probably by a lot----everyone who knows the course well seems to say that.

JESII

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Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2005, 10:27:07 PM »
But if for some reason it's true that the course holds its cumulative score value (or whatever it is Pat's saying) no matter the wind direction I'm not so sure I'd said that's any kind of example of brilliance or genius on anything.

Why would the comment that a course that has been touched by genius (in one's opinion) put others on the defensive about the rest of the golf courses in the world? Tom and Rich (two usually very sensible posters) seem to think that because two of us think Seminole has a "genius" routing we are somehow saying their home course is diminished or that every course should be this way. I tried to avoid that confusion by saying that Shinnecock is my favorite course, I see no flaw whatsoever.

Tom,

As to your quote above, assuming this is the case, why would you not say it is an example of brilliance? Can you think of other courses with this characteristic? Are you suggesting it was 'happenstance'? From my limited experience it stands alone. That, combined with the challenge and playability Seminole offers all levels of player makes it a very unique experience, maybe even genius.


Rich

I saw the layout of Royal Dornoch on its website. Is there a "hard" wind as Tom describes the north being at Shinnecock?

ForkaB

Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2005, 03:54:58 AM »
JES II

I do not at all think your and Pat's comments on Seminole "diminish" any other course (my favourite ones included).  All I've tried to say is that neither of you have convinced me that the characteristics of Seminole which are the subject of this thread in any way portray any particularly unique form of "genius."

Vis a vis Dornoch, IMO there is no "hard" wind (except for when it blows REALLY hard, from any direction, as it can do.... ;)).  In general, any help one gets on any hole in terms of distance is negated by an increase in difficulty around the greens (most of which exhibit most or all of the intresting characteristics cited by Pat in his description of Seminole's 2nd).   My guesstimation, bsaed on my experience, is that up to and including a one-club wind, Dornoch offers the same overall degree of challenge and difficulty regardless of wind direction.  Much as Pat says about Seminole.  And yet, it is generally an out and back routing (with some subtle but important changes based on its "snake" shape).  So.......

.....Dornoch (as well as the other courses I cited) seems to belie Pat's arguments about the uniqueness of Seminole.  This by no means diminishes Seminole, which I am sure is a very, very fine golf course.

Finally, above a one-club wind, the degree of challenge and difficulty rise, but not assymetrically depending on the direction of the wind.  (This was what I was hoping to learn vis a vis Seminole from my initial post).  The course will be equally as hard and challenging with a 3-club wind regardless of the wind direction, i.e. bloody hard!

Slainte

TEPaul

Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2005, 06:00:31 AM »
Sully:

I'm not being defensive if and when I question this idea of Seminole holding some sort of cumulative shot or score value in any wind around the compass. Frankly, that's something I've never thought of before and I have known the course for over forty years. But perhaps that's true. For instance, Pat is right for a good player who hits the ball about 275-280 all the par 5s sort of transition from 5 to 4 depending on where the wind is coming from. #3 and #15 very reachable in a wind out of the north/northwest, #14 in a wind out of the east and #9 in a wind out of the west. I guess I could continue to go through every hole and sort of determine if all together there is some kind of cumulative similarity in total score given any particular wind direction. If that's true, and it may be, that's interesting but I'm not sure I would say that's some from of routing genius. Secondly, I'd have to wonder if even Donald Ross was aware of something like that at all.

It also occurs to me that little Gulf Stream in Delray Beach may be the same way and basically it's primarily a north/south routing on a very narrow property. That one I've played over the years almost as much as my own course and it seems if you think through the holes as a whole the same sort of similar cumulative score no matter the wind direction may be true too. The reason for that would be if the wind was from either the north or south the long holes sort of balance out either way as do the short ones either way. The short ones east and west in either direction do too (the property is so narrow it's not possible to have long holes east and west).

Maybe this is sort of a Ross thing---I don't know, again, frankly I never really thought of something like that before about Seminole or any other course. All I ever thought about at Seiminole is what Rich mentioned---eg if the wind is really strong at Seminole from any direction I always expected the course to play one helluva lot harder than if there wasn't much wind. (BTW, when I shot that 90/70 I don't remember that there really was much of any wind either day).

And I agree with you that there's no question at all that a course like Shinnecock plays a whole lot harder with a wind from the north than it does in its prevailing wind. The reasons are obvious with holes like #1, #2, #3, #11, #12, #14 heading into the wind and #5 no longer reachable for good long players (I wouldn't know about things like that because I don't think I've hit half a dozen par 5s of any type in my entire life! ;) ). #16 is probably not that reachable anyway down-wind from the north.

I love Seminole, always have, I just never thought of this idea of it holding some kind of cumulative similar score value in a wind from any direction. But even if it does, like perhaps Gulf Stream seems to, I don't know if I'd call that routing genius or brilliance, but perhaps it is. I guess what something like that would mean is that Ross just created a sort of balance of every type of hole right around the compass.

Personally, I think I'd prefer a course year in and year out that was perhaps easier in one wind direction and brutal in a wind from another direction score-wise. In that way you'd have sort of two or even three entirely different courses score-wise all due to the randomness of the wind direction. But if you and Pat think this idea of a cumulative score similarity in wind from any direction is brilliant and genius in a routing sense, that's cool too. Who am I to tell you what you should think is genius or brilliant about a golf course or routing? Seriously!

I think the routing of Seminole is brilliant pretty much for the way Ross used the two inline north/south ridgelines on the east and west sides of the property.

So, I'm not disputing either your or Pat's observation that Seminole holds some cumulative score value in any wind direction around the compass---again, that's something I never even thought about in all these years. The only thing I ever thought about was how strong the wind was no matter which direction it was coming from. (Maybe one of the reasons I personally think Seminole is harder in a north/northwest wind of say 20-25mph is because #1 becomes harder, #2 and #11 a lot harder for me as does #10, and #4 I basically couldn't reach and since I rarely ever even tried to reach par 5s in two #3 and #15 don't really matter to me. On holes like #6 and #18 I don't remember the wind direction mattering that much).

But how about if I just ask Buddy Marucci or Vinnie Giles what they think about that observation of a cumulative score similarity no matter the wind direction? They're two guys who've been members there for about 10-12 years and two guys who probably should have a pretty good idea about something like that since both of them were Walker Cup players. (actually Vinnie's the Green Chairman at Seminole). I'd have to say that Buddy and Vinnie would probably know more about all the nuances of that course and how various wind directions effect it than either me or you or Pat. I should also ask Tom Gilbert, our new head pro who came to us this year from Seminole. I'm really impressed with Tom Gilbert, really impressed---by his observations on architecture and classic architecture---really impressed. I hate to use the term but he really "gets it", it my opinion. You've got to meet him soon Sully. How about you come on over to Gulph Mills one of these days soon anyway---particularly when we've had some dry weather---there're a bunch of things I'd like to ask you and you should meet Tom Gilbert. I'll line up a game for you with him. (Maybe I'll get that NASA rocket scientist from New Jersey, Pat Mucci, down at the same time. Bring some ear muffs---and if you forget them I'll have some for you).
« Last Edit: April 28, 2005, 06:29:01 AM by TEPaul »

JESII

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Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2005, 09:39:26 AM »
TEP

First, I would love to come over. Gulph Mills is one of my favorites and Tom Gilbert sounds like he'll be a tremendous asset. Bob Ford is one of the club pros that every assistant ought to spend a year with, simply as good as it gets.

Second, I think my position, and probably Pat's as well, is that Seminole not only provides a consistent cumulative score value in wind from all points on the compass but it also provides a balance of shot requirements through the course of the round. These shot requirements will switch from hole to hole as the wind switches, but the net sum is very close at the end of the day. I think it would be very informative to ask Buddy and Vinny both questions because, as you say, they have infinitely more experience there than I.


Rich

It is this second point, a balance of shot requirements in all wind directions, that I struggle to see as possible on an out-and-back routing. Perhaps the cumulative score value of the course would remain the same (and maybe it is my fault for using the example I did) in all wind directions, but how often do you have to hit a fade against a right to left wind when faced with a wind generally going straight with or into the general out or back direction? The "snake" shape of the routing you mention very possibly provides the opportunity for this shot requirement balance, and that would make the routing of Royal Dornoch "genius" IMO.[/color]

George Pazin

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Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2005, 10:01:54 AM »
Rich -

"Object" was the wrong word, but as I not the wordsmith you are, I couldn't quickly think of another. I don't think I've ever said "uniquer", so I don't really understand that part, either.

However, I definitely don't think the situation Pat & Jim reference, if true, is at all axiomatic. It may be true at Dornoch as well, but I don't think there are many courses that play equally difficult irrespective of wind direction.

I'm also not sure that it really matters or that it is a result of genius or not, but that's another story. I think you can have a course that plays unbalanced with respect to the wind difficulty-wise, but still be balanced fun/interest-wise. (How's that for Bush-speak? :))
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

ForkaB

Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #58 on: April 28, 2005, 11:45:46 AM »
George

You said "much more unique."  Sorry for the use of poetic license... :)

PS--I still think the Mucci-Sullivan Postulate is axiomatic, at least given the qualifiers which I have already explained. ;)

JES II

Pure crosswinds are rare at Dornoch.  The snake shape allows for relatively subtle ones (i.e. 20-->60 degrees) on several holes.  The routing of the course is really determined more by nature than "genius."  One could have crossed the various dune ridges to get more directional variety (and in fact did on some earlier routings), but why?  It wouldn't really have added much to the course, IMO.

JESII

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Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #59 on: April 28, 2005, 01:19:49 PM »
JES II

Pure crosswinds are rare at Dornoch.  The snake shape allows for relatively subtle ones (i.e. 20-->60 degrees) on several holes.  The routing of the course is really determined more by nature than "genius."  One could have crossed the various dune ridges to get more directional variety (and in fact did on some earlier routings), but why?  It wouldn't really have added much to the course, IMO.

Then it seems the routing might be termed serendipitous. Regardless I look with great anticipation to an opportunity to see and play Royal Dornoch.

ForkaB

Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #60 on: April 28, 2005, 02:10:12 PM »
I just realised that I've successfully muccied this thread!

Shifted it completely from a discussion of one course to another of my choosing, right under the nose of the initial poster!  After years of being a mucciee I am now a muccior.  Oh frabjous joy!

I think I'll pour myself a large Macallan....... :)

TEPaul

Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #61 on: April 28, 2005, 08:39:14 PM »
I was over at GMGC today and asked our new head pro who was for a few years an assistant under head pro Bob Ford at Seminole.

I asked him, with nothing at all preceding my question, if he felt the golf course or its routing was such that a situation of basically a similar cumulative scoring result was creating no matter what direction the wind was coming from.

He thought about that for about two seconds---and said not at all that by far the hardest and most effecting wind direction on scoring was from the north/northwest. We were on our way into the bar ( :) ) and he started thinking about the details or why and proceded to explain his feeling about why that was. His description was very interesting including some details that have not been mentioned or even thought of on this thread.

On the way out I ran into two guys, members of Seminole, who are pretty good players who just returned from spending a good deal of the winter down there playing Seminole. I asked them the same basic thing that Pat mentioned on the initial thread and they also said they felt the north/northwest wind was the most difficult and problematic on scoring and interestingly the details of why that is were practically identical to what our head pro said. These guys play the course almost everyday the course is open. I'd assume their independent observations that are interestingly quite similar are worth something.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2005, 08:51:34 PM by TEPaul »

JESII

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Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #62 on: April 29, 2005, 09:17:39 AM »
I was over at GMGC today and asked our new head pro who was for a few years an assistant under head pro Bob Ford at Seminole.

I asked him, with nothing at all preceding my question, if he felt the golf course or its routing was such that a situation of basically a similar cumulative scoring result was creating no matter what direction the wind was coming from.

He thought about that for about two seconds---and said not at all that by far the hardest and most effecting wind direction on scoring was from the north/northwest......On the way out I ran into two guys, members of Seminole, who are pretty good players who just returned from spending a good deal of the winter down there playing Seminole. I asked them the same basic thing that Pat mentioned on the initial thread and they also said they felt the north/northwest wind was the most difficult and problematic on scoring and interestingly the details of why that is were practically identical to what our head pro said. These guys play the course almost everyday the course is open. I'd assume their independent observations that are interestingly quite similar are worth something.

I don't know if you think this kind of evidence should carry any weight in your position here. I did not join this site with the intention of letting well educated and thought out opinions get in the way of my argument.


George Pazin

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Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2005, 09:21:18 AM »
 :)

Maybe CBM was right - one does need to play a course repeatedly under different weather conditions.

Or maybe those 3 guys are all lurkers just yanking our chains.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JESII

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Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #64 on: April 29, 2005, 09:21:50 AM »
Just out of curiosity, care to discuss those "details that have not yet been mentioned here"?

I assume the north/northwest wind opposes the 2nd and 11th holes, as well as #4 probably. Did Tommy give other specifics as to what makes that wind so difficult?

Perhaps this is fodder for a separate thread, your call.

Mike_Cirba

Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #65 on: April 29, 2005, 09:50:05 AM »
"I did not join this site with the intention of letting well educated and thought out opinions get in the way of my argument."

Classic!   ;D

You'll fit in well here with the rest of us.  

TEPaul

Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #66 on: April 29, 2005, 10:57:07 AM »
"Just out of curiosity, care to discuss those "details that have not yet been mentioned here"?"

Sully:

Sure, no problem at all. He did at first say not to use his name but then he sort of laughed and said maybe it would be OK too. I think he's certainly aware of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com.

We didn't have much time to talk about it but when I asked him the question about a similar cumulative scoring effect in all wind directions his response about the north/north west wind direction was wholly his own---I said nothing about anything.

He said that even for good players a wind of 15+ from the north or northwest made #1 quite a bit harder particularly the new and enhanced rear of the green. That #2 and #11 were much harder and for the same obvious reason. That #4 was much harder as was #16.

But the interesting observation (uniquely his) was that one might expect the downwind holes, particularly the par 3 #5 and #17 and the par 4 #6 to compensate for or offset the difficutly of those upwind holes but they don't at all.

The reason he gave is those downwind holes become really hard to keep the ball on the green!

Admittedly, they have slapped a firm and fast "maintenance meld" on Seminole but these old classic courses were supposedly designed for firm and fast conditions, right?  ;)


"I did not join this site with the intention of letting well educated and thought out opinions get in the way of my argument."

Sully;

That one is a classic but don't worry about it. You've just been hanging around on here with Pat Mucci too long. Pat tries to never let a well reasoned argument or the educated opinions of those who know some golf course a whole lot better than he does get in the way of his opinions! I'm sure you've noticed by now that no matter how silly or off the wall anyone's opinion or argument is on here they are totally incapable of giving it up in the face a well reasoned and educated opinion to the contrary!  ;)

Should they? Well, not really---not in my opinion anyway! We should all recognize a couple of things here---eg golf architecture is a highly SUBJECTIVE thing---always has been and probably always will be and ultimately there's probably nothing at all wrong with that. It's probably a very good thing.

And secondly, "Golf and golf architecture is a great big thing and there really is room in it for everyone."

If you haven't realized it yet, the latter is called "The BIG WORLD" theory----it's true, it's universally right and no one on here or anywhere else, including you or Patrick Mucci IS EVER GOING TO TALK ME OUT OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!

:)

« Last Edit: April 29, 2005, 11:07:58 AM by TEPaul »

JESII

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Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #67 on: April 29, 2005, 01:20:02 PM »
"Just out of curiosity, care to discuss those "details that have not yet been mentioned here"?"


But the interesting observation (uniquely his) was that one might expect the downwind holes, particularly the par 3 #5 and #17 and the par 4 #6 to compensate for or offset the difficutly of those upwind holes but they don't at all.

The reason he gave is those downwind holes become really hard to keep the ball on the green!

Admittedly, they have slapped a firm and fast "maintenance meld" on Seminole but these old classic courses were supposedly designed for firm and fast conditions, right?  ;)


Tom

I was actually thinking to myself, that the one green that really, really becomes tough to hit in that north/northwest wind is the 5th. When the course is "up" it requires as high quality a shot as any hole you will ever play. Re: #'s 6 and 17, I can understand the statement, but would argue that they are not nearly as effected as #5 under those conditions. #17 in the northeast/east wind just might equal #5 in a northwest wind, when the course is "up".

About the firm and fast "maintenance meld", I think the agronomic advancements that allow courses to be maintained as they are (11+ stimpmeter readings with rock hard surfaces) are a good balance to the technological advancements in equipment that allow players to hit the ball so far. This conditioning can really go to the extreme at Seminole because of the wonderful green complexes that require high quality approaches (even with short wedges) just to get a chance for birdie. How do you feel about green conditioning as an equalizer to the distance issue? Is Seminole as good an example as I think of this equalization?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2005, 01:20:54 PM by JES II »

TEPaul

Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #68 on: April 29, 2005, 01:34:42 PM »
Sully:

It's an interesting point he makes about those downwind holes being hard to hold a ball on. My experience is that the 5th would be harder to hold a ball on than #17 because #5 is a little longer and the green is sort of on the same level as the tee while the #17th green is more below the tee and probably a little more back to front sloping than #5.

But not only did he say HE thinks Seminole is harder to score on in a North/Northwest wind but he said he thinks most of the members feel the same way. That was kinda confirmed when I ran into two of them and asked them the same question last night on my way out there.

But that's OK, Sully---if you and Pat want to think Seminole is brilliant as a routing and Ross is a genius because the routing creates a similar cumulative scoring effect in wind from all directions of the compass, by all means continue to think it. As you said you did not come on this site to let anyone's educated opinion to the contrary get in the way of a perfectly good argument on your part.

However, in the next ten years I want to see both you and Pat each shoot identical numbers in a 25MPH wind from every point on the compass at Seiminole and if both of youse guys fails to do that I'm personally gonna call both of youse dirty rotten liars and architectural duffuses all over the world on the INTERNET!

JESII

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Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #69 on: April 29, 2005, 01:39:42 PM »

However, in the next ten years I want to see both you and Pat each shoot identical numbers in a 25MPH wind from every point on the compass at Seiminole and if both of youse guys fails to do that I'm personally gonna call both of youse dirty rotten liars and architectural duffuses all over the world on the INTERNET!

Be happy to give it a go, I may even need someone to have a drink with after one or two of those rounds  :-* 8)

George Pazin

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Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #70 on: April 29, 2005, 01:44:15 PM »
Just out of curiosity, does #5 have anything fronting the green? Would it be easier to hold if one really exaggerated the run part of a bump and run? Or is that aspect of the game really that dead? What type of approach shot are you guys trying to hit?

I will never forget watching Tiger, Ernie and Lee Westwood putt to within tap in distance from 50+ yards out at TOC during the '00 Open. It probably stood out because you just don't see anyone try that sort of approach anymore. Sad.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JESII

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Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2005, 01:55:41 PM »
George,

I think you'll find every good player will use the shot they determine provide the best odds of reaching the desired result. So long as said shot is in their arsenal.

As to your question; the green is virtually surrounded by difficult bunkers, the front is completely guarded by 8 foot deep bunkers, the right side has a 3 or 4 foot deep bunker running its length, the left has another 8 foot deep (is it the same bunker as the front?) bunker, and the rear is another shallowish bunker. The area to the left and slightly back (about 10 o'clock) is the only repreive, as a fall off to an area of fairway height for about 5 yards then regular rough.

George Pazin

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Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #72 on: April 29, 2005, 02:05:38 PM »
Thanks for the info on the 5th, Jim. Sounds like the answer to my question regarding the bump and run is a definite no.

I didn't mean any sort of implied insult regarding anyone's decision making. I just sometimes wonder if the aerial game is so ingrained into top players that they have more confidence in hitting an absolutely perfectly pured iron to the perfect spot, when a simpler approach might yield better results over the long run.

I suppose I should just fall back on Tom P's philosophy that top players are so good that they'll find a way to play the shot and just do it, preferences be damned. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JESII

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Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #73 on: April 29, 2005, 02:23:20 PM »
George

No offense taken, I was just trying to point out an opinion sort of in between where you and TEP might be. Todays top players have, without question, fewer shots than those of yesteryear but when a situation calls for a shot they do have they use it.

In large part because of equipment, the top players today can hit their best shots much better and more consistently than those of 20 years ago. But also due to todays equipment todays player has far fewer shots in their arsenal.

TEPaul

Re:The genius of Semiole's routing ?
« Reply #74 on: April 29, 2005, 02:37:08 PM »
Sully:

Do you think #17 has any run-up or bounce in potential at all because if you don't I'm gonna tell you a story you will be just amazed to hear about that hole?

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