Some Pre & Post KPIV Pics

[Evan Fleisher]

Just a few pics of our GCA brethen engaged in golfing activites before and after the Stevinson Ranch get-together...

Another nice Vander Borght ass-pic, seaside


...And his "cousin's" ass-pic from the same spot


Mutt & Jeff perched atop a really cool tee-box...and it's no easy shot from up there!!!


Yours truly and Brent Hutto on a fairly famous 1st tee


Can you guess whose house this is?!?!?

[ed_getka]

So what did you guys think of Pasa? I know the house but just in case someone wants to guess I won't say.

[Evan Fleisher]

Other than continued poor play, I really enjoyed the place...very unique piece of property there in the hills.

Some great vistas, and seemingly EVERY hole plays uphill!!!...actually I'd venture to say that 11-13 of the 18 holes truly do play uphill and the course plays SIGNIFICANTLY longer than the scorecard indicates.

The stretch of holes from 10-12 was solid, and many of the other holes seemed pretty unique.  The par-3 third plays like a par-3 1/2 and I though was a great hole.  Many features of the course seem "big"...on a similar scale to the features found at Bethpage Black.  The bunkering was very well done both in placement and depths...loved the huge complex fronting the 10th green.

Unfortunately, the greens were NOT what we expected. Not only did Pasa do the injection process, they also punched them with their normal process which led to very uneven and slower surfaces, something I know they pride themselves on.  They were also in the process of punching and sanding the teeing grounds. The greens looked like they had some awesome interior movement, and you could easily get the sense that ANY shots hit above holes in "normal" playing conditions was death, but under the current conditions they were much tamer.

Shivas...how the hell did you 8-putt that 17th green, dude?!?!?

All in all we had a very nice time...both Paul and Brent cleaned my clock in our small money game, and an after-round lunch with those two chaps and a surprise appearance by my match-play foe Mr. Goldman made for a great ending to my 5-day West Coast trip.

Can't wait until the next installment!!!

[ed_getka]

Evan, aka H.F.
   If you want to see how easy an 8 putt can be, just come back and try Pasa when the greens are running at regular speed. Besides, Dave uses the long putter, what can you expect from someone like that. Seriously though, I would bet that more people have 3 putts than 2 putts on that green until you really know the breaks well, because some are just flat out antigravity, compared to what your eye thinks it sees.

[Brent Hutto]

I loved Pasatiempo, hopefully I'll get few pictures posted later this evening. As Evan said, great scale to some of the holes (like the one-shotters on the front nine and the tenth and eleventh holes) and it's a very friendly and relaxing place to play golf. My periwinkle-blue carry bag with the siesta-man logo is now one of my prized possessions.

I think the tenth, eleventh and twelfth holes at Pasa are as good a three-hole series as I've played other than fifteen, sixteen and seventeen at Cypress Point (which are the ultimate gift to the golfers of the world from the ultimate architect). The front nine at Pasa doesn't really "do it" for me other than the aforementioned Par 3's. The back nine is awfully fine, though.

I will say one controversial thing w.r.t. the previous discussion of Spyglass Hill versus Pasatiempo. In my opinion there is no contest. Spyglass is as good a course as I had ever seen until last Wednesday morning. Pasatiempo is the equal of Pine Needles, Cuscowilla and possibly the Ocean Course (couldn't say until I see the real Pasa greens) but Spyglass is a complete golf course with no real shortcomings that I can perceive.

[Jfaspen]

has there been talk of where next years KP event will be held?

[Bill_McBride]

Brent, one of the reasons many cite for preferring Pasatiempo to Spyglass Hill is the great routing of Pasa vs the great to ho hum routing of Spyglass.  Wouldn't it have been great if RTJ could have figured out a way to FINISH the round out there in the dunes?!  If you haven't seen Pasa with greens running at least 12, you haven't seen Pasa.  I was there Monday also, teed off at 11 a.m.  I had been told the greens were only going to be water-aerified.  Disappointing to say the least to have to whack it through punch marks and sand, but there are few finer days than those spent at Pasatiempo.  I agree with you about the back nine, I kind of lose it on the 7th with all those trees, but #2, #3, #4, #5  , #8 and #9 are all outstanding holes.  

[Chris Perry]

The only problem I had with the green on 17, was I cut my approach and left it high on the left side. Bad move. No way to hold a chip from there. I think I 2 putted after the second chip for a DB.

The 16th is supposed to be the bear though. I wish the super had put the pin back that day. I made a 15 footer to keep from 4 puttting because I left the first one short, and then had to tap one just to keep it fifteen feet past the hole. Yikes.

The par 3's ate me up because I'm a lefty who cuts across the ball, and they always seemed to be playing into a stiff wind that day, at least all the ones on the front. I finally got out of the funk on 18, hitting a six iron inside the flags shadow.  Where was that swing all day?

[johnk]

The par 3's ate me up because I'm a lefty who cuts across the ball, ...

Those par 3's eat everyone up, not just lefty cutters...  They are a big reason the course seems to play so long, I think.  Simply put - 4 of them ARE real long.  

But I think the secret of the course is simply: build greens at an angle, or make them effectively very shallow.  Give no one an easy approach, and make recovery very difficult.

Where's Pasa on the GD list? - oh, it's not on it anymore, right... Yeah, there are 100 better courses in the US.  
 

[THuckaby2]

John K:  well, Brent clearly prefers Spyglass to Pasa... lots of others do also... is it that hard to believe others might not put it in the nation's top 100?

Think they'll decrease the green fees back to their pre-Top 100 ranking level?

God I have a love/hate relationship with this golf course.  I'd say it deserves top 100, but it's no biggie to me if it falls out.

In any case, great pics, great stories.  

Jeffrey F:  there has been talk about next year, but nothing has been set.  It will be SoCal's turn to host... thus venue is their call.  Look for something to be set sometime in the fall - that's how this usually goes.

TH

[Brent Hutto]

Well, I'd say Pasa is definitely in the Top 100 courses I've played  

Seriously, I did really really like the course. I place is on a similar level to Cuscowilla or Pine Needles, courses I'd play any time I have an excuse to be close enough to make a day of it but not quite worth dropping other plans to make a special trip there as often as possible. Where is that on the Doak scale? I never can remember...

Regarding Bill McBride's comments I would say that all three of the one-shotters on the front nine are excellent and personally I thought the opener in its current form is a great starting hole. The Par 4's through the hosues and trees are just a little too generic to hold my complete interest. I found myself steering my tee shots a bit too much to be having fun.

On the routing of Spyglass, I'm with my non-GCA buddy David on this one. The best holes at Spyglass Hill are not finished once you leave the dunes. In the abstract, I agree with the idea that finishing on the oceanfront is hard to beat. But if I were playing either a medal or match game at Spyglass the final five holes are a power-finesse-power-finesse-power combination that I don't think could be matched by finishing on the fourth, fifth or sixth holes (or the ninth for that matter).

[THuckaby2]

Brent:

No hassles there - they are both great courses as I see things.  I just used you as an example for John K. because your words were right there.  MANY people prefer Spylgass to Pasa... and Spyglass does tend to get pooh-poohed in here from time to time... thus it can't be hard to believe Pasa fails to make any top 100 ranking.  But if it makes John feel better, it did stay in the Top 100 public courses list.

 

Pasa is an interesting assessment in any case.  There's no doubt that holes 6 and 7 are troublesome, being SO tight and SO packed in, along with #8.  So that's enough for some people to disqualify the course from the absolute tops of lists, which I see as perfectly fair and understandable.  To be at the very, very top, it seems to me a course really can't have any non-great holes.

For others, the greatness of the other holes, particularly those on the back nine, allows it to make up for these weaknesses.  This is also very understandable.

Oh well, it remains fun to banter.

Re Spyglass, great call re the holes away from the ocean.  The more I have played those the more I have grown to love them.  And you are right on re the finish... having played competitive rounds there, you assessed it perfectly... alternating power and finesse... I never thought if it that way.  But you are right on.  And man it does tend to get you... if one can finish well at Spyglass one is really playing some golf.

TH

[PThomas]

Brent's fondness for Spyglass -- as well as others -- makes me think I'm gonna have to drop the $300 next time I'm out there to play  

and I think I disagree that some tough/tight driving holes is bad...isn't that just a good test of driving?  isn't that what's required at places like Olympic?

[Brent Hutto]

Spyglass Hill from here



to here


is as much fun to play as any seven-hole stretch I've had the privilege to experience, save one. One other picture I love is



which shows an approach that rivals the tenth at Pasatiempo for boldness and contour, even if the tee shot isn't quite as stirring. In fact, for a lefty slicer the approach on the eleventh at Spyglass is probably more challenging than the second shot to the tenth at Pasa with the only caveat being that a relatively flattish lie may be easier to find on the former. I played Pasatiempo #10 twice and couldn't find anything but a downslope with the ball below my feet.

[Brent Hutto]

I think I disagree that some tough/tight driving holes is bad...isn't that just a good test of driving?  isn't that what's required at places like Olympic?

I think there's a qualitative difference between a tight, sloping fairway with trees being the penalty for an offline shot versus a tight, sloping fairway with OB and/or hitting a house the penalty. Houses are a (necessary in many cases) abomination when they're close to the line of play on any golf course.

And any time you want to book a round at Spy, I'll be there to give you the best match I can muster.

[THuckaby2]

Is Spyglass a great golf course:  yes, without a doubt.

Is it worth $300 to play?  Man I can't get behind that.  But that's another bias of mine derived from the fact I have played it many times gratis or close to it.  I just can't see dropping three C's for that course.  I guess for a once in a lifetime thing, well... my friend did say "one can't put a pricetag on a good time" so that follows here.  But man that's a lot of money.

Thus when Brent asked about it pre-TKP, my caution was it might not be worth the money.  My thinking was hell, he's likely gonna do it anyway, this way he will have less expectations, which might be exceeded.  Methinks there was method to my madness.

So I'm glad you came away loving the course, Brent.  Not everyone does... those with too much of a card and pencil mentality tend to get so beat up there that they can't get past their awful scores to see the course's greatness.  It is truly great, in many ways.

And your pics are FANTASTIC - you guys got a great morning there, the light is perfect.  But masochist Lou played the tips?  That is asking for a long day...  

I like your pic of 17 green.  The angle I've had is usually past that left fairway bunker, looking at the green from the angle in between the greenside bunkers. To that right pin, that is a great angle in... Which of course illustrates the more subtle greatness of that golf hole - angles do matter, as even though it's a short iron in, the green is so contoured that it helps to have a shot that has a better chance of stopping.

Re #11, that hole was re-done completely a few years ago and is pretty cool now.  Used to have a lake where those bunkers were and to the left of them, pretty much mandating a layup.  Now the thought of going for it is there, particularly if one plays the middle tees... and it's a tough shot from a sloping away lie (uphill for righties).  The lie dictates a shot shape against what you need to do...

Re Pasa #10, you'd just need to play it a few times... all sorts of lies for the 2nd are possible - uphill, sidehill, downhill... and it's gonna be a bitch approach regardless.

TH

[Brent Hutto]

I like your pic of 17 green.  The angle I've had is usually past that left fairway bunker, looking at the green from the angle in between the greenside bunkers. To that right pin, that is a great angle in... Which of course illustrates the more subtle greatness of that golf hole - angles do matter, as even though it's a short iron in, the green is so contoured that it helps to have a shot that has a better chance of stopping.

That first picture I posted of seventeen green is from the exact spot where I played my second shot (short-sided myself 20 yards right of the green and pin high). This picture



is the line Lou had from the big right-hand fairway bunker, from which he put the ball on the right fringe. There was a tres cool hole location that day on the right side. It was scary looking as though the ball would roll to the front of the green if you missed a putt from above or right. In fact, we both missed such a putt and the ball would stop in the first foot or so below the hole so it was a perfectly fair hole location that looked as though it was borderline unfair. Just a minor mind-job courtesy of the greens at the 'Glass.

[THuckaby2]

Brent - another great pic.  See, you had a far easier shot than Lou did.  And although short, neither was easy due to the green countours.  But if Lou had it to do over again I bet he'd have wanted to go farther left with his tee shot, way over by your ball.  But that's also tough to do given the trees on the left...

Lots going on for such a short hole, huh?

And well said re the green - that has to be one of the more confounding on a course full of such.

TH

[Brent Hutto]

You want confounding? I kept this picture full resolution so you can see the two golf balls there on the green "above" the hole.



Lou putted first and left the ball woefully short. Guess it's not as downhill as it looks. So I putt on the same line and leave mine three feet short. Then Lou putts and still leaves it short. Then I putt, playing for it to break toward the water. The ball goes dead straight and never touches the cup. In fact, those putts aren't really downhill at all until well past the hole which looks perched on the edge of a precipitous rolloff to the pond. And that was my best tee shot of the day, dammit.

[THuckaby2]

Another great pic, and another
tough green.  You know how to conquer that
hole? Just knock your tee shot in, as Rich Goodale
once did.

 

[Lou_Duran]

"Could it just be that GCA has made all of us worse players, but better golfers?"
M.Cirba, 12/6/02

I think that we've convinced ourselves that Cirba is right.  You must remember, however, that Mike is a lefty and they are never right.

Spyglass is the kind of course that could make one quit the game unless you adopt a Cerbian attitude.  I shot my worse round in 30 years, despite hitting quite a few credible shots.  I blame it all on Hutto who mysteriously showed up for my 6:50 tee time, and to the pastings I took from Huckaby, Huntley, Pieracci, and McBride that may have irreparably damaged my already fragile ego.  

And no, Tom, I am not a masochist, just a dumbass "purist" in the Kavanaugh mold.  Don't you think that alluding to playing the tips obviates a near three digit score just a bit?

Honestly, I didn't think that I could score worse than I did at Poppy Hills.  The "Glass" is a very exacting test, though it is "fair", not overly long, and possible to score well on if you are playing well.

Despite the great drainage work still taking place, the course does play longer than the card for most amateurs.  In my opinion, holes 1 and 4 are the best on the ocean stretch, with the par 3s (#3 and 5) too difficult for their distances in windy conditions with all the trash around them.

Beginning with #6, the course really gets "solid" with a nice variety of holes, and no real weak ones (the last par 3 is only so-so) .  As a purist, I particularly liked the way that Jones transitioned and melded the green complexes into the surroundings.  It reminded me much more of C&C's and Doak's style than that of most big brand modern designers.

I did walk some of my favorite holes at PBGL (e.g. #s 6, 8, 9, 10, 18) and these are superior to the best holes at the Glass.  In my opinion, PB is the weaker sister, so if it is worth $425, the Glass at $295 is a relative bargain.  Better yet, if you know a member at the Glass, the accompanied guest fee I believe is under $50.

As to other values in the area, the Bayonet course at BlackHorse has to be high on the list.  They've done quite a bit of tree trimming, and if they would expand the fairways to the tree line and worked on their bunker sand, it would be an excellent place to play.  It does have a few rather quirky holes, but for under $50, it is hard to go wrong.  I was also told that the BlackHorse course is more "gamy" and fun.

BTW, Brent is a very nice walking companion and a very astute student of gca.  He certainly discovered and communicated the various features and nuances of the Glass much better than I could.

[THuckaby2]

Lou:

So many things to reply to....

1. Spyglass from the tips... oh man, that takes the
purist thing to the highest level.  That being said,
my first time there I did the exact same thing.  Of course
I was a 17 year old punk who thought I was good at
the game, so I have an excuse.    No hassles though,
just giving you a hard time.  It is a VERY difficult golf
course from back there.  Remember also though you're
talking to a man who played Shinnecock from the tips,
for pretty much the same reason, so take my jibes with
an ocean of salt.  Yeah, Shinnecock is "fair" also -
as a great man said when we played there, "all it takes
is perfect golf shots."  Same goes from the Glass, from
the tips.

2. But that being said, at Shinnecock and Spyglass,
all of a sudden the game is FUN when one moves up
to the middle tees.  At the Glass, #3 and #5 aren't bad
at all when you're playing them from 135 and 160,
respectively.

3. PB is the weak sister to Spyglass?  Really?  Perhaps
in terms of test of golf, maybe... but in terms of overall
greatness?  No way.  And I am a huge Spyglass fan.

4. They don't have many members left at Spyglass.  It
was a small group to begin with - essentially those who
put up money to help build the course back in the early
60s - and they are dying off, sadly.  But if one can play
with one of them, as I had the great fortune to do thanks
to a friendly and gracious Zimbabwean, it's cart fee only.
That has to be among the best deals in golf.  But it's not
exactly a commonplace thing to get, let's just say.

5. Bayonet... where do I begin... we've battled
over those many times in here.  I liked the course much
better back when the trees extended to the ground and
every shot anywhere near them was an unplayable if
you were lucky.  It was absolutely completely "unfair"
but my lord was it the ultimate test of golf.  In that respect,
it was unique.  One went there to see how his game stood,
or would hold up.  Now?  Oh it's way more "playable"... and
all in all is certainly a "better" course... it's just not unique
any more in any way.  I still like it, and still play there
fairly often... I just do tend to weep about what once was.
But lots of people find me insane for this.

6. We're doing NCGA course rating at Blackhorse next
week.. oh yes it is quirky... but very fun.  I look forward
to it for sure.

TH

[Brent Hutto]

I appreciate the kind words from Lou and accept my share of blame for that day's left-leaning ball flight. If I discerned anything that Lou overlooked it was probably because I was seeing things from about 100 yards closer on some holes, the tees I played were often in another zip code from the back markers. One helpful local resident stopped off in the thirteenth fairway and had a playful bit of back-and-forth with the normally taciturn Mr. Duran. However, as you can see from the following photo he didn't care for the results of the subsequent approach shot



I think with light winds the third and fifth holes are very sporty, if penal. But with even the moderately-strong 20mph breeze we encountered the penalty for anything less than a perfectly judged and struck shot can be more compatible with match play than the keeping of a medal score. That said, if I ever return to Spyglass Hill I now know that there's an area of short rough half as large as the third green immediately to the right (upwind on the day we played) to offer a safe bailout. I couldn't see any such bailout on the fifth.