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Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
What would you do to Cobb's Creek?
« on: April 14, 2005, 12:44:01 PM »
Assuming you had total control over a Cobb's Creek restoration / renovation project with an unlimited budget... what would you do to the course?

I'll fire the first shot....

#8 – Move the tee back 10 yds to a max of 205-210, clear out the trees to the right of the green.  One of the truly underrated par 3’s in the Philadelphia area.  The bunker and slope to the left of the green causes you to bail out right but it is a much tougher up and down from there.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2005, 12:45:12 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:What would you do to Cobb's Creek?
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2005, 03:19:54 PM »
Could someone give me directions, that I may cross the Delaware and visit it?  I passed through the park getting lost last year, but did not see any of the golf courses.  I may do a field trip later this week.  

Thanks!

DRB
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do to Cobb's Creek?
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2005, 03:31:25 PM »
DRB,

I would call the club first (215-877-8707) - the last time I checked they had closed 5 holes due to flooding from the heavy rains over the past 2-3 weeks.

If you send me a private message with your address, I should be able to give you easy directions to get there.

Geoff

Mike_Cirba

Re:What would you do to Cobb's Creek?
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2005, 03:36:51 PM »
I'd begin by digging up the old aerials at the Dallin museum, which should clearly show what Wilson built originally.

From my understanding (I've never made it to the museum, despite the best of intentions), various parts of his work were lost to roadwork (route 1?), housing (along 10-11?), and the Karakung course, which according to a very knowledgeable source includes a few of Wilson's original holes.

The Cobbs Course was built by Wilson in 1916.  In 1927, the first nine of the adjacent Karakung course opened, and the second opened (I believe) three years later.  A source is confirming Alex Findlay as the architect, but no official word yet.  

During WWII, large portions of the course were used for artillery practice, and the configuration changed at that point.  

So, I'd start with the original aerials and determine whether it was possible to "restore" much of the original Wilson design.  Right now, only 8 holes are exact on the Cobbs course, with another 4 being similar to original intent.  

I'd also do something about the greens, because they are generally in deplorable condition....soft, wet, mud bogs where putts are fast because there is no grass to hold the ball.

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do to Cobb's Creek?
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2005, 04:00:49 PM »
Mike,

I didn't realize that the original aerials still existed.  Where is the Dallin museum?

Do you know which holes still remain from the original design?  I would guess #2, #4, #5, #6, #8, #15, #17, #18.

Geoff

Matt_Ward

Re:What would you do to Cobb's Creek?
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2005, 08:07:05 PM »
Can someone tell me who operates the golf course ?

Yes, I know it's a Phillie muni but does the city staff and operate the golf course ?

It might be posssible for a more effective team to come on board. I'm not always an advocate for managament companies to operate things -- the record for NYC courses is a mixed one -- but Cobbs Creek is simply too good of a potential course to languish as it is now.

One other thing -- how many acres does the existing course have and might be possible to acquire any adjoining land to the site ?

Thanks ...

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do to Cobb's Creek?
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2005, 10:05:28 PM »
Matt

You apparently did not read my post in the "Municipal Makeover" thread. Meadowbrook Golf was the leasee of all Philly munis until April 1. They relinquished their lease. The City had proir notice and sent out a RFP. Apparently, some of the local Meadowbrook people formed a new company- Liberty Golf- and were awarded the lease by the city. The old website golfphilly.com is no longer operating.

The Norman Design renovation announced by Meadowbrook is also history. Back to square one.

Steve
« Last Edit: April 15, 2005, 08:26:27 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:What would you do to Cobb's Creek?
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2005, 07:32:20 AM »
To answer the question directly:

Since Tom Doak has stated that Cobbs Creek is one of the courses he'd like to restore, I'd have him do the job with the assistance of all the research from interested GCA members. All I need is the winning Powerball ticket. :)
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike_Sweeney

Re:What would you do to Cobb's Creek?
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2005, 07:47:13 AM »
I have not played there in years, but I have said here before that there is no Bethpage Black lurking in the shadows there at Cobbs. The holes (used to be 1-6) along Cobbs Creek are unique and special, and they should be preserved. However, I would say dig up Karakung, allow Cobbs to expand to the Karakung area. Thus you end up with 18 holes of "Championship Golf" with the current 1-6 in the mix, throw in a 9 holes short course for kids and beginners and pay for the whole thing by selling off the land where holes 8, 9 and 10 are along City Line Avenue !

Mike_Cirba

Re:What would you do to Cobb's Creek?
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2005, 06:00:24 PM »
Mike,

I didn't realize that the original aerials still existed.  Where is the Dallin museum?

Do you know which holes still remain from the original design?  I would guess #2, #4, #5, #6, #8, #15, #17, #18.

Geoff

Geoffrey;

They keep changing the starting hole everytime I'm there, but if the two holes on the clubhouse side of the road are 17 & 18, then the original Wilson holes are 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 15, 16, and 18.  

 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:What would you do to Cobb's Creek?
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2005, 12:21:13 AM »
I've never actually seen Cobbs Creek, so I can't comment directly.  But since Hugh Wilson only designed four or five courses in his life, and it's one of the four, I would recommend restoring the course if it is possible to do so.

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do to Cobb's Creek?
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2005, 12:56:15 AM »
At Mike's request, here's Cobb's Creek.

Based on matching the scorecards, Karakung is mostly on
the right, with 13 holes east of the road (the other two holes
are on the Olde course) and the other 5 comprise of two
holes flanking the range and 3 more NE of the range).  Olde
course is the other course.


Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do to Cobb's Creek?
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2005, 09:13:08 AM »
From the Philadelphia Inquirer:

Posted on Sun, Apr. 17, 2005

On Golf | Changes on way at city's courses

By Joe Logan

Inquirer Columnist

Once again, there are big changes at the six city-owned golf courses.

Meadowbrook Golf Group Inc., the Florida-based company that took over the long-term contract to manage and improve Cobbs Creek, FDR and the other courses back in 1999, has begged out.

As of April 1, the Fairmount Park Commission has hired a newly formed outfit, Liberty Golf, to run the courses for the next two years, buying time to work on a master plan for the future.

"Liberty is sort of a bridge to the future," said Barry Bessler, chief of staff of the park commission and a member of the golf committee.

It may be the future, too. Liberty, in fact, is nothing more than a company created by Bud Connors, who has run the courses for the last dozen or so years for Meadowbrook and, before that, a previous management company, Club Corp. of Dallas.

Back in the fall, when Meadowbrook decided to get out of running municipal courses to focus on high-end daily-fee properties, it got permission from the city to shop the contract around the golf industry. There were no takers, not with rounds down and any new company facing $1 million rent payments to the city.

The city, which took back all financial responsibility, probably could have played hardball, but Meadowbrook had been hit hard by the hurricane damage last year to its Florida courses. Besides, the city had seen the results of similar tactics when Club Corp. wanted out.

"There's nothing worse for our courses than having an operator that doesn't want to be there," Bessler said.

That's when Connors, whose heart is very much in the city courses, formed Liberty Golf and basically took on all of Meadowbrook's people in Philadelphia.

"We took on 77 people and six courses overnight," Connors said. "I've spent the past week or two just trying to establish credit with the vendors."

Connors likes to think regulars at Cobbs Creek, Karakung, Juniata, FDR, John F. Byrne and Walnut Lane won't notice a difference. Or if they do, it will be for the better.

It will be the same people behind the counter in the pro shops and the same people on the mowers. Connors looks forward to not having to get approval for decisions from corporate bosses in Florida who are sweating every nickel for the quarterly earnings report.

"I can tell you already there will be more money spent on these golf courses," Connors said.

In the last year or two, Meadowbrook had touted plans for a major restoration of Cobbs Creek to recapture the original design by Hugh Wilson, the genius behind Merion Golf Club's revered East Course. Connors said that project is not necessarily dead.

"I still have hopes and dreams of doing this restoration with the city," Connors said. "We have worked so diligently."

This could all turn out to be quite the crossroads for the city courses.

In about a year, the Fairmount Park Commission plans to issue a "request for proposal" for the courses, meaning an invitation to companies in the golf management business to pitch plans for the future of the courses.

As Bessler sees it, the city has to listen to all kinds of possibilities. Should millions be sunk into improving Cobbs Creek? Should Walnut Lane be made into a 9-hole course and sports center? Should FDR be totally a First Tee facility? How can the city courses keep greens fees affordable and compete with daily-fee courses in the suburbs?

"You look at the declining rounds, and you look at the properties themselves, and somebody has to decide what is best for the courses," Bessler said. "When we put out our [request for proposal], we hope the folks in the golf community give us some ideas."

When that time comes, who knows how many golf management companies will be interested. One company that expects to be there, front and center, with plenty of ideas and a little more history, is Liberty Golf.

For 2005, the city courses have new, slightly reduced, greens fees. Peak rates, including carts, are:

Cobbs Creek, $43 weekends and holidays; $38 weekdays.

John F. Byrne and FDR, $38 weekends and holidays; $33 weekdays.

Karakung, Juniata and Walnut Lane, $33 weekends and holidays; $28 weekdays.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do to Cobb's Creek?
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2005, 09:23:24 AM »
Here is the link to an earlier thread on this topic. The pics may not appear:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=6661;start=msg127357#msg127357
« Last Edit: April 17, 2005, 09:23:47 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Sean McCue

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do to Cobb's Creek?
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2005, 10:01:10 PM »
Steve,

Could you repost the pictures of Cobbs Creek?  It has been a long time since i have seen it or played there.

Sean  
Be sure to visit my blog at www.cccpgcm.blogspot.com and follow me on twitter @skmqu

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do to Cobb's Creek?
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2005, 09:02:22 AM »
The change in management (and the upcoming rfp process) seems like a rare opportunity to try and save this course.

Is their any interest in spearheading an effort to find a architect and management team that is interested in restoring this course and putting together a bid?  To me, its a historical landmark that needs our help.

I know it probably sounds corny, but I'd love to see golf architecture museum (or even just a display room in the clubhouse) as part of the plan.  So many architects emerged from the Philadelphia school of architecture and this would be the perfect place to honor them.

Maybe this is just a pipe dream, but I'll be the first to volunteer my time if others are willing to get involved.  I just think of Tom Paul's quote that Mike C. usues as a footer on his posts - "What ought to be in life and what is or will be will always be a greater divide if one does not get involved"

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What would you do to Cobb's Creek?
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2005, 04:46:10 PM »
My information is that Liberty Golf may be an interim manager for the next year or 2 until the RFP is published and circulated among the bigger players in golf course management- Billy Casper Golf, Kemper Golf, etc. This is not to say that Liberty can't come up with capital later and take over the proposed restoration project at Cobbs Creek. Right now, Liberty is just getting started.

It's interesting to note that Meadowbrook's website still lists the other local courses that they manage- Tattersal, Brigantine and Porky Oliver, the Wilmington, DE muni.

Any project of the magnitude of Cobbs Creek involving a closing of the course for a year  could get mired in local politics even if a corporate benfactor could be found.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”