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blasbe1

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #150 on: April 20, 2005, 12:32:35 PM »
Gene:

I hadn't heard that top 100 story but it wouldn't surprise me.  Things were much better access wise about 15 years ago, you used to just get on the walk up line at about 4:00 a.m. and tee off by 6:30 or so on the Black b/c nobody wanted to play it.  That meant for most of us we got about 5 hours of sleep in our own beds the night before so I'd say I played the Black about once a month in those days.  

I'm lucky if I play it every few years now.

 :-\

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Private clubs
« Reply #151 on: April 20, 2005, 01:00:38 PM »
diagramming sentences , Dave, is taking me back on a trip down memory lane to St. Symphorosa grammar school and St. Laurence High school

I'm pretty sure i rememeber my oldest daughter doing it recently...
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Private clubs
« Reply #152 on: April 20, 2005, 01:16:13 PM »
This is so amusing. You have Shivas "diagramming" a fairly straightforward complex sentence and, in the process, obfuscating (i think) its clear import. On the other hand, you have Tom Paul prognosticating about what a Supreme Court (of any stripe) would do if presented with the question of whether a private club is protected by a Constitutional right to free association. This prediction, based on a belief in the vitality of the 9th and 10th Amendments, is gleaned from a 40 year old textbook (an era, not coincidentally, that produced Griswold v. Conn.(which may have been the last time the 9th Amend. was cited )).

Only on a golf architecture website. Makes me smile.  ;D

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Private clubs
« Reply #153 on: April 20, 2005, 02:28:37 PM »
Jason:

    I used to be one of those guys sleeping in the car to get on Black. Each member of our foursome would alternate each week sleeping in the car overnight so we could be one of the first off.

   I don't miss that for anything - but I do dearly miss playing the Black.

   I still believe it to be one of the greatest.
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Private clubs
« Reply #154 on: April 20, 2005, 03:00:08 PM »
Obfuscating?  

You think that diagramming elucidated anything? c'mon man.

Quote
The framers of the constitution were deathly afraid (literally!) of a powerful federal government.  


I haven't read your 2d treatise, but fortunately you gave me a preview. This is simply a false statement, or, only partially correct. There were many framers who felt that a strong central government was necessary, viz. Al Hamilton. But to suggest that the constitution was the product of a widely held fear of centralized power is false.

I'm not saying I disagree with your views on the constitution, but you shouldn't resort to fiction.

Punchbowl

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #155 on: April 20, 2005, 04:31:45 PM »
One of the great things about private clubs are tournaments.  it is one thing to go out and play a round of golf at a nice course.  It is a whole other level to play in both match play and stroke play tournaments that are well organized with quality players.

DMoriarty

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #156 on: April 20, 2005, 06:51:34 PM »
I agree with SPBD,  this thread is comical . . . TEPaul has a textbook nearly a half-decade old, so he is a Constitutional scholar and can lecture a bunch of lawyers on how to properly interpret the Constitution; plus he played a few rounds with some Europeans who may have been nearly as pompous as he, so now he is an expert on the motivations of European clubs and knows more than members of such clubs.  Meanwhile, Shivas is trying to Bork us again, (mis)reading text to his liking.  

A few comments,

Gib, your theory that we have more "ill-mannered idiots" and must therefor guard the gate doesnt fly.   The ill-mannered idiots are the ones flooding the overseas courses with outside play.  Your contingent for your upcoming trip excluded, of course.  

David Tepper,   We do have our own rights of rambling here in the United States.  It is called an easement.  Depending upon the jurisdiction, they allow the public access to the coast, to rivers and streams, to certain recreation sites, etc.    So we are not so different after all.

Shivas,  I agree that the Constitution is a "grant to power."  The Federal Government only has the power granted by the Constitution, and there is no need to list out every little thing the Federal Government lacks the power to do.   But what you are forgetting is that the Constitution has been amended (the P and I clause of the 14th amendment is likely the best source of power incorporation and protection of individual rts), and so has the world-- interstate commerce is indeed everywhere and so the Federal Govt's power is right there with it.  

As for you reading of the first amendment, it is fun to see the lengths to which you go to shore up a flawed argument.
1) There is a comma.  There should not be a comma if we are only talking about one right.   And there is no long list in this phrase, just two (or one) item(s.)
2.  Look a little more carefully at your sentence diagram, keeping in mind the alternative suggested structure which you say it should have if they are seperate rights . . .

Congress shall make no law abridging. . .  the right of the people to peaceably to assemble, [OR] to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Now this doesnt create two rights, but rather creates rights in the alternative.  Did the people have a right to peaceably assemble OR petition for redress of grievences??  When did they choose one or another?  If they did one, could they not to the other.  Makes no sense.  

Peaceably assembling and petitioning the government for redress are two different rights.  They are two distinct actions so they'd have to be.  

That being said,   the right to peaceably assemble is not the same freedom of association that people throw around on here all the time.  It is a political right.  

By the way, didnt I teach you about half this stuff back during the Martha Burke debates?

--  There never was a Martha Burke Lawsuit.  So far as I am aware she was simply trying to exert political pressure.  I dont think her group ever challenged Augusta's right to do what they were doing.  

-- George Pazin calls the judiciary "tyranical" because it occassionally (and very rarely) trumps the legislature's wishes.   But according to the founders, the most dangerous and likely tyranny is "the tyranny of the majority."  So perhaps the judiciary is just doing its job.

Quote
A well-constructed Union must, above all else, break and control the violence of faction, especially the superior force of an … overbearing majority.
--Federalist 10

Quote
Whoever attentively considers the different departments of power must perceive, that, in a government in which they are separated from each other, the judiciary, from the nature of its functions, will always be the least dangerous to the political rights of the Constitution; because it will be least in a capacity to annoy or injure them. . . .  The judiciary . . . has no influence over either the sword or the purse; no direction either of the strength or of the wealth of the society; and can take no active resolution whatever. It may truly be said to have neither FORCE nor WILL, but merely judgment; and must ultimately depend upon the aid of the executive arm even for the efficacy of its judgments.
--Federalist 78

_________________________

As to the original questions, I think the reasons for the current exclusivity of clubs have probably been mentioned--

--Clubs fear that opening up too much will put them at risk of loosing their autonomy and might increase their tax burden.  In my opinion, these concerns became much more serious in the 1960's, with the use of the Commerce clause to reach private action.  I am no expert on the area, but it seems a club could carefully craft its way around some of these pitfalls (for example, Augusta's supposed Chinese wall between the club and the Masters.)  However, I dont blame the clubs for choosing to avoid trying to walk this line.  Also, I dont think that this is necessarily motivated by a desire to behave contrary to certain societal norms-- Having Uncle Sam watching over your shoulder can take its toll even if you have no intention of doing anything wrong.  

-- That being said, some clubs (or rather some members of such clubs) really want to continue behaving in a manner which is unacceptable in today's public society.   While its Constitutional basis may be questionable, private clubs have this right.  

--  Some members of some clubs apparently dont buy into the notion that allowing some access to the great courses is a good idea.  Take TEPaul's comments earlier, "You (and Rich) keep saying that the system in Europe is better. Better for whom? It may be better for golfers who want access to play private clubs but I don't think the way it's done in Europe is better than America for the member of a private club."   Presumably TEPaul is talking about belonging to a really top tier club which allows one to gain access at other top tier clubs.  

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Private clubs
« Reply #157 on: April 20, 2005, 06:57:17 PM »
I can sleep easy tonight... Dave M has disagreed with my state of the judiciary.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

DMoriarty

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #158 on: April 20, 2005, 07:10:37 PM »
I can sleep easy tonight... Dave M has disagreed with my state of the judiciary.

More importantly, James M disagrees as well.

TEPaul

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #159 on: April 20, 2005, 09:07:27 PM »
And we have SPDB (Sean Berry) perhaps a present and current law student weighing in as our Constitutional pundit, arbitor and critic!  

Only on a golf architectural website.  ;)

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Private clubs
« Reply #160 on: April 20, 2005, 09:37:55 PM »
If SPDB is a law student, I can assure you he knows more about Constitutional Law than all of the rest of us.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

TEPaul

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #161 on: April 20, 2005, 10:40:12 PM »
"If SPDB is a law student, I can assure you he knows more about Constitutional Law than all of the rest of us."

Wow, Somehow I don't think that's going to sit too well with legal-eagles (lawyers) Dave Schmidt and Moriarty.  ;)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 10:56:16 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #162 on: April 20, 2005, 11:46:18 PM »
Shivas,  See this is the kind of knots you Borkers get yourselves tangled up in.   You guys dont want to extend association rights beyond political so you have to figure out a way to read it as one single right.  So you ignore a comma (splitting the phrase in two) and you come up with this convoluted diagram business.  

The reason that associational rights are limited to the political is because 1) Even though the founders didnt say it that way that is the way the founders meant it , and 2) that is the way it has been interpreted.  Your after-the-fact jumbling of the language notwithstanding.

They used "and" (following the comma) because "or" would have created a right in the alternative.
___________________________________
In a previous post (now deleted), TEPaul said:

Quote
David Moriarty:

I definitely am not going to beat around the bush with you and your posts. In my opinion, you are a insecure pompous little asshole. I real twerp. And if that's not pathetic enough you have zero humor which is even worse and as far as I can tell you never did.

Have a nice day!  ;)

I guess Mr. Paul will not be nominating me for a position on the USGA governing committee.  :'(

Gib_Papazian

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #163 on: April 20, 2005, 11:55:26 PM »
Moriarty,

This parsing of words sounds suspiciously Clintonian.

#2. Bork was right.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Private clubs
« Reply #164 on: April 21, 2005, 12:31:07 AM »
Shiv - I was merely pointing out that your statement that the framers were deathly afraid of a powerful federal government is demonstrably false. Hamilton was only one of the advocates of a strong central government. Hamilton's plan was rejected, but so what? So was New Jersey's which advocated the opposite. No plan was adopted in toto. Each plan contributed ideas which found their way into the Constitution (Hamilton, for example, in the form of a strong executive).

If my memory of the history of the Convention is accurate, I believe that the first plan offered up was Randolph's Virginia plan, which called for federal veto over state laws. Randolph contemplation was something to the effect of "the near annihilation of the idea of states." Hardly the talk of a delegate who was terrified of a strong central government. In fact, a number of the leading political figures who espoused a weak central government simply boycotted the convention. According to you they missed one hell of a party.

To say nothing of Madison. How would you characterize his fear of a strong federal government?

Again, I'm not saying that fear of an overwhelming central government didn't inform the final draft. But the idea that these fears were widely held is fiction.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 12:51:34 AM by SPDB »

DMoriarty

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #165 on: April 21, 2005, 12:36:33 AM »
Moriarty,

This parsing of words sounds suspiciously Clintonian.

#2. Bork was right.

1.  I parse not.  Read the clause and notice the comma.  Talk to your pal Shivas about parsing.

b.  Bork was right.  Wayyyyyy right.  Thankfully, we will never know just how far right he was.  

III.  The year is 2005.  When will your ilk give this Clinton thing a rest?

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Private clubs
« Reply #166 on: April 21, 2005, 12:50:34 AM »
Sarge (i think) - Thanks for the vote of confidence. I don't know a lot about the Constitution relative to some of the others here. I know enough, however, to know when it, and its history, is being manipulated.

TEPaul - I'm sorry if I offended you, it wasn't my intention - I was merely playing off the fact that you kept on harping  on the 9th Amendment, which has been relied on by the Supreme Court fewer than 25 times.

You, at least, had the decency to admit that your views of the Constitution were informed by a 1960s era textbook. Dave Schmidt, on the other hand, who is evidently relying on the same source, has yet to come clean.  ;D

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Private clubs
« Reply #167 on: April 21, 2005, 12:55:28 AM »
Gib - Have you read Shivas's tome on the previous page of this thread? Check it out, and tell me if it strikes you as a model of clarity. I warn you though, if you are on dial up it will take a while for the full text of his post to appear.  

Gib_Papazian

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #168 on: April 21, 2005, 02:29:40 AM »
Moriarty,

#1. You and Shivas are both my pals.
#2. Bush makes me as sick as Clinton.
#3. Bork is a constitutional scholar. That does not mean I agree with all his positions, just that I recognize his views to be as valid as those on the far left.
#4. When will people of your "ilk" stop trying to brand all "non-liberals" as reactionary conservatives?
#5. Shivas may like to argue for fun, but in reality I know him to hold rather egalitarian Midwestern values. Methinks we are watching a couple of lawyers pull each other's chain for the amusement of the studio audience.   ;)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 02:30:41 AM by Gib Papazian »

Gib_Papazian

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #169 on: April 21, 2005, 02:42:37 AM »
Moriarty Part #2:

You must be joking in your hallucination that more ill-mannered pinheads are crossing the pond than staying home to annoy me with their 5-hour rounds.

By the time a guy goes overseas, he usually has enough golf-sense not to let out a beer belch in front of Paddy Hamner.

The great unwashed in America includes an enormous percentage of cigar smoking, Bud guzzling, cart driving, play-it-out-to-the-bitter-end, self-absorbed jackals who have half the etiquette of their British counterparts.

You have been at Rustic Canyon for too long with all the architecture intellectuals. You need to go play Griffith Park or one of the sardine-can muni's. How about Brookside on a Sunday afternoon?

Now, would you rather have a congo-line of dorks in front of you, or a group of Scots?

BTW, The story in Lesson from a Lady in Scotland is true. Including the part about the R&A guys on an outing in East Lothian.        

ForkaB

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #170 on: April 21, 2005, 06:34:18 AM »
One of the great things about private clubs are tournaments.  it is one thing to go out and play a round of golf at a nice course.  It is a whole other level to play in both match play and stroke play tournaments that are well organized with quality players.

Agreed, Punchbowl, but the UK has the USA beat in this regard too, by miles.  With a very few exceptions, EVERY UK course has open tournaments that are well organized and attract quality players, and most of them even have a significant number of open tournaments which are well organized which allow average or even below-average players to participate (often along with the "quality" players).

Oh that NGLA or SFGC were to have such enlightened policies........ ;)

TEPaul

Re:Private clubs
« Reply #171 on: April 21, 2005, 08:57:36 AM »
SPDB:

Thank you for saying that but I'm not offended at all by anything you said. You only offered your opinion on the 9th and 10th Amendement's significance on this subject (or lack of it) and the source I used. However, somehow I think it's slightly ironic that a couple of relatively young lawyers on here would automatically pooh-pooh the fifth edition of Faulkner and Kepner's "America, Its History and People" published by McGraw Hill. Although it may not seem an adequate source of information to some I hardly think a national text book would get through at least five editions in this country if it was offering some really off-the-wall opinions!  ;)

I've always been interested in the US Government's unique structure and mechanisms based on the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. "The Federalist" has always fascinated me, the dynamics of those times and the efforts to compromise and sell the thing and its entire concept at that time which as most know was anything but easy. And on the more general topic of the Nation's beginning and it's Founders this relatively recent book by Harvard's Bernard Bailyn is really fine---not so much dealing with the details of the mechanisms but more with the motivations and particularly the rural sensibilities of some of the most significant of them---such as the brilliant but admittedly complex Jefferson.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Private clubs
« Reply #172 on: April 21, 2005, 10:43:46 AM »
Sarge -

You can know a helluva lot about something and still get the big picture wrong. Just look at some of the opinions we have on golf courses on this site!

If Bork is right, I don't wanna be wrong....

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Private clubs
« Reply #173 on: April 21, 2005, 10:46:59 AM »
It's hard to know what to make of conservative "strict constructionists" who support dismissing a part of the Bill of Rights as a "mere inkblot."   :P
« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 10:47:59 AM by Jeff Goldman »
That was one hellacious beaver.

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Private clubs
« Reply #174 on: April 21, 2005, 11:18:39 AM »
TE Paul, George P, others:

I basically am not tracking the various arguments for their merit; however, as a 1986 graduate of the Walter F. george School of Law, Mercer University, and having passed 2 bar exams (one in 2001), I can assure you it is very doubtful the veteran legal eagles have any more than scant knowledge of Constitutional Law.

A Law Student has several books on it and studies them daily for a couple of semesters. I'll go with him on the finer points of Con Law.

I'll merely state this principal. People are free to discriminate. The State (or US Govt) can also, but it has to have a reason.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 11:26:00 AM by John Cullum »
"We finally beat Medicare. "

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