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Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
While playing Kingsbarns last year, Walter Woods, former super at TOC, told me that Clifford Roberts and Augusta were most to blame for many of the problems facing modern golf. Among the issues he listed were the "green is better notion," and the idea that courses could be altered at a whim. He said a lot of Scottish supers overwater their courses because US tourists want them green -- which he says is Augusta's fault.
Of course, Walter had played Augusta. He called it "beautiful and scary."
Is there anyone else more responsible for the way people perceive golf and golf architecture?
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Mike_Cirba

I'd say he helped perpetuate old problems and had a big hand in creating new ones.  

He also seemed to be an enormously unhappy man, despite his great wealth and status.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2005, 01:48:55 PM by Mike_Cirba »

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
I would say the TV directors who show the ponderous routines of professional golfers.

Besides slow play everything is OK up here.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

JakaB

The only problem with modern golf is that there are too many great courses for too few people....Why do you guys think there is a problem when anyone on this site can come on here and ask about any city in the country and automatically get a handful of great courses to play....There has never been a time when the great private courses in the country are easier to join, easier to afford and more diverse in their memberships.   There has never been a time when public courses have been better architecturally, conditionally and plentifully.   There has never been a time when anyone rich or poor can grow up and win national championships or make a living at the game.  Where are the problems...because I will also say there has never been a time agronomically when green can also equal firm...where everybody can have fast greens and where trees are being trimmed at the most lowly of clubs.  You guys just need to forget about Mr. Roberts and get an attitude adjustment.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2005, 02:34:16 PM by John B. Kavanaugh »

Mike_Cirba

John K,

Nice post.

There's a lot of truth in there, and as usual, a unique way of looking at things.

Never thought of you as a starry-eyed optimist.  ;)

I think most of the positive things you point out were more true 10 years ago than they are today, however.  It's the negative trends and directions that most concern me.  


JakaB

Mike,

What are some of the negative trends beyond the average golfer hitting the ball farther and straighter.

Patrick_Mucci

Robert Thompson,

NO,

But, TV might be the biggest culprit.

Most labor under the impression that ANGC is "green" when nothing could be further from the truth for the majority of their golfing season.

I don't buy the Scottish Super's story.
That's a lame excuse.
Since when did any of the Supers intermingle with the golfers or pass out questionairres to Americans regarding conditons.

What are Americans going to do when they get there and see a lack of green, turn around and go home ?

Most Americans go to Scotland seeking the legendary conditions that they've heard so much about, or seen on TV while watching the British Open or Dunhill tournament.

T_MacWood

JohnK
How much did Victoria National cost to build?

I suspect it has pretty healthy maintenance budget as well. I have no idea what the club's finances are now that the Good Samaritan Terry F. is gone, but someone has to pay for that extravagance (including the state of the art greens based upon those at ANGC). Perhaps there is enough wealth in that region, I have no idea. But that extravagance can be traced back to Cliff Roberts...remember gluttony is a sin.

JakaB

Tom,

I don't know what the course cost to build...that's like asking how much the basket used to pass out the fish and loaves cost.  Terry gave us a wonderful gift from the bottom of his heart...that is not gluttony it is generosity.  The only sin ever committed at Victoria National was when people who don't know shit about how to build a golf course claimed they could do better.  How do you spell e-n-v-y..

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
John....I think you are probably mostly correctly right, it's just that most don't [ I won't say can't ] see it....it's like talking about environmental air or water quality now versus 40 years ago....most just don't recognize the improvement.
...hell, the Cayahoga river was on fire in the 70's, but people be eatin fish out of it now [ although I have yet to indulge ] ;)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2005, 07:51:31 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

JakaB

How many ultra-millionairs have opened their pocket books and hearts to build great courses in the last ten years for regular joes like me....this has to be a modern phenomenom.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
JBK....dam...nailed it again.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

JakaB

Kinderlou Forest is a perfect example....that is obviously a gift to the golfers in the world.  If you don't believe me check out the course then check out the membership rates and do the math.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2005, 08:03:25 PM by John B. Kavanaugh »

TEPaul

I agree. Why would Clifford Roberts be responsible for most of the problems of modern golf? If others are big enough idiots to think they should do or can do what Roberts did at ANGC without the resources he obvioiusly had that's their problem, not Roberts's.

JakaB

TEPaul,

Who was the first super rich guy that built a course and sold memberships at a loss just because he wanted to share his vision with other people who love the game...is this a modern thing or has it always existed.

T_MacWood

JohnK
You are right, it was generous gift for the folks of S. Indiana. What is your ball park figure for the cost of the golf course? How does the club's maintenance budget compare to other pirvate clubs in the region...is it a financial strain now that TF is gone?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2005, 08:18:22 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

"TEPaul,
Who was the first super rich guy that built a course and sold memberships at a loss just because he wanted to share his vision with other people who love the game...is this a modern thing or has it always existed."

JohnB:

You got me. I don't know who's done that but I have heard of a few who apparently didn't mind not getting some pretty hefty sums back that they'd dropped into golf courses. The word around PVGC was when Crump finished the course he was gonna burn his bonds. I guess if he'd done that it'd have to be considered pretty damn generous.

JakaB

Tom,

Terry made sure we would be ok even in his death...we have 200 very happy members and zero financial problems.  Of course it is difficult in that I just called for a tee time for Saturday morning and someone already had the 8:00....had to take the 8:10 damn the bad luck...and to think I gave them a day notice to boot.

note:  Sub-Air was developed at ANGC but Victoria National was the first course ever built with all 18 greens using the system.  I was glad to hear during the Masters that ANGC has finally caught up with us and got all 18 of their greens done..

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
This is a true statement if you think golf course maintenance is the biggest problem facing modern golf. ANGC has set new standards for maintenance and upkeep which most people see one weekend a year.

However most of the changes at ANGC which are criticized on this website are in reaction to other problems facing the game. ANGC is reactionary and not proactionary in driving changes to the game. The most prominent of which is the advancement of technology and the materials used to develop clubs and balls.

So who is "most responsible for the problems facing modern golf?" Is it the equipment manufactures that come out with better products to meet consumer demand? Is it the governing bodies that have failed to regulate the ever improving technology?  


T_MacWood

JohnK
How does that green system work?

JakaB

JohnK
How does that green system work?

Don't know I'm one of those just show up and play kind of guys....never been to the maintenance barn but I hear it is nice and the super knows who I am.  Did a search for Sub-air and didn't find much but what I did find indicated that it is much more complicated than what one would think from watching tv.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2005, 10:13:03 PM by John B. Kavanaugh »

Jim Johnson

Just for interest, in David Owen's book "The Making of the Masters"...Hootie Johnson is quoted as saying that he believes the four most influential figures in American golf in this century (20th) have been Bobby Jones, Arnold Palmer, President Eisenhower, and Roberts.

As for being unhappy, it sounds like he had a helluva tough life as a youngster; accidentally burning down his family's house, helping his ailing mother out while his dad was away, and when he was 19 years old, had to suffer through his mom's own suicide.

He was, from the sounds of things, a "dictator" at Augusta. Yet, in reading the book, I see that there were times when his humourous side came to the forefront. Notably, when he was asked by the club's photographer Frank Christian to be a surprise guest in a video Christian shot of a man wearing a gorilla suit, running over the golf course, stealing clubs, and standing in a buffet line in the clubhouse. Roberts agreed to be in the final shot of the film, when the gorilla removed the mask, revealing himself to be Roberts. There are many anecdotes sprinkled throughout the book of Robert's humanitarian side, such as arranging an exhibition one year for local children, who were given free practice round tickets, and scheduled the practice round late in the afternoon so that it would not conflict with school.

Roberts also had the idea of using a portion of the tournament's proceeds to make golf available to soldiers stationed at Camp Gordon (Fort Gordon). The club built a practice range and huge putting green at Camp Gordon, and donated golf course items, and turf, maintenance equipment, and supplies.

JJ  

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
JBKavanaugh,

The "rich" guy in my neighborhood that built a course with inexpensive membership was a man by the name of Kent Fulton. He brought Devereux Emmet (DE's aunt lived here) to Salisbury and constructed the 18 hole Hob Nob Hill GC on Undermountain Rd.. It was totally free for local residents and he only had one rule, take a divot and don't replace it and you were banned forever from the course. He sat on the porch overlooking the course and made sure the rule was followed. Gene Sarazen played there once, came with his Chauffer/Caddie, played 18, shot par, thanked Mr. Fulton and was on his way. The course was closed during WW11 and during that time Kent passed away. His widow didn't have the desire to keep it up so it was closed and eventually sold for housing. Some of the remaining corridors can be seen at www.terraserver.com , just put -73.42976 in the longitude box and 42.00480 in the latitude box to see the aerial, if so inclined.
My house is a mile south.

The website for subair is : http://www.subairsystems.com
« Last Edit: April 14, 2005, 10:33:17 PM by jim_kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

T_MacWood

JohnK
Doesn't it give them the ability to regulate the moisture in the greens and also the temperature? It appear Tom Fazio is associated with the small number of courses that have the subair greens...I wonder if he is a stockholder.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2005, 10:48:16 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Tom MacWood, you and I could live comfortably and happily under a sub-air green. They've got wide-screen TVs, computers, medium sized refrigerators and the odd unreconstructed go-go girl down there.