Has Ross Run His Course...

[JakaB]

The recent downgrading of many a Ross course in the rankings has lead me to believe that the era of Ross may be over.  His model of high tee to high green with monolithic severly sloped greens restored by the latest hack of the week has grown old and tired.  Because of the flip flop in modern technological strategies he allows the ground game when it is not practical and chokes it off when it is...he is old time, old school and old hat but it was sweet when it lasted.

[TEPaul]

"Has Ross run his course...?

No, but nice try anyway JohnB. Fazio has run his course though, but maybe fads will change again someday and in about 50 years golfers may notice him again. Don't hold your breath.  

[JakaB]

TEPaul,

You know how the modern golfer likes his eye to be comfortable...so...do you think the bastardization of so many Ross courses by so many different restoration stylists has led to his downfall.  I just read yesterday that Fuzzy Z is going to restore French Lick to its original Ross glory...I just don't see that working out for the better...not because of the choice of Fuzzy but more because FL needs to move forward and not back..

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

While others may deride your title, I think there is an element, a growing element within the game that has a different perspective on the game of golf and the field upon which it's played.

And, globally, it's not just Ross that's being left in the dust, it's the "classic" course and its designers.

When viewers are bombarded each week with a PGA Tour Venue, either specifically designed for those golfers, or specifically altered for those golfers, Donald Ross and others are just becoming...... "rememberances"

[Michael Moore]

Barney -

I applaud you for attempting to understand the real possiblity that Donald Ross courses may be fading for no other reason than the passage of time.

It seems like a perfectly natural progression.

"One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever."

[Mike Hendren]

TEPaul,

You know how the modern golfer likes his eye to be comfortable...so...do you think the bastardization of so many Ross courses by so many different restoration stylists has led to his downfall.  I just read yesterday that Fuzzy Z is going to restore French Lick to its original Ross glory...I just don't see that working out for the better...not because of the choice of Fuzzy but more because FL needs to move forward and not back..

John,

Please provide a time-frame so those interested (which should be everybody) can play there in advance.  With apologies to Lil Abner, put it back, put it back, put it back the way it was.

Ross indeed runs the risk of becoming passe.  In my limited opinion, his work lacks the boldness, quirkiness and aesthetics of even his Golden Age peers.  French Lick is an exception and worth a visit for that reason.  More so than his peers, his work perhaps is tougher to "get" after a single play.

We are very fortunate to have Holston Hills and Memphis CC as his book-ends in the Volunteer state.  Your premise is supported by the fact that HH is 6th in the state on Golf Digest's list and MCC is nowhere in sight.  

As for his courses:  Old, yes.  Tiring, never.  

Mike

[ForkaB]

There is a lot of subtely in Ross courses that one has to seek to be able to find (or as Yogi said, you can see a lot just by observing....).  Last summer I played 3 of them in MA, two of his best (Charles River and Winchester) and one of his least best (Weston).  All have some great features (the little dip to the left of the 1st at WCC sticks in my mind).  Also, as I've come to understand that DJR did the current 1st green at Dornoch, well, that is one really great green site.  None of today's heroes (C&C, Doak, etc.) could have done any better, IMHO.

[Paul Richards]

John


Let's turn this around.

Ross is being celebrated at many courses around the country as great courses restore their Ross features.

The disconnect is that Golf Digest and its ratings are out-of-step with the game.  Their lists are now filled with fads and flavor-of-the-month and overspend-the-unlimited-budget type courses.

This too shall pass.

 

[Brad Klein]

Rich, it was the 2nd green at Dornoch. But that's the limit of Ross' involvement there. The longtime club secretary did not get along with him and limited his work to that one hole. Besides, Ross wouldn't recognize much of the course today, since so many of the holes, including 7-11, 13 and 16 were established after WWII.  

[danielfaleman]

I'm glad that Ross is being downgraded - the more tee-time for me. I hope that the whole world falls in love with Fazio...

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

If you think Ross' courses have run their course, what about Rachel's? (shameless YAPCR)

[Bob_Huntley]

Barney -

I applaud you for attempting to understand the real possiblity that Donald Ross courses may be fading for no other reason than the passage of time.

It seems like a perfectly natural progression.

"One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever."

Michael,

I think it was Horace who wrote.


"Those that are mighty shall fall and those that have fallen shall surely rise again."

Bob

[SPDB]

Bob - I think the more germane quotation from Horace is:

"the harder you fall, the higher you shall bounce"

[T_MacWood]

"Because of the flip flop in modern technological strategies he allows the ground game when it is not practical and chokes it off when it is...he is old time, old school and old hat but it was sweet when it lasted."

John

Huh? I don't follow you.

I look forward to the US Open in a couple months...including all the impractical and choked off ground game shots. The fact that some of our golf architects continue to make a decent living off old DJR is probably a good indication he's not quite run his course.

I don't think TF has altered any Ross courses since Inverness and Oak Hill, perhaps when he resumes his Ross activities we can finally turn out the lights....on DJR and golf architecture.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Barney,
Why don't you start a petition....

http://www.petitiononline.com/

[Mike_Sweeney]

The recent downgrading of many a Ross course in the rankings has lead me to believe that the era of Ross may be over.  His model of high tee to high green with monolithic severly sloped greens restored by the latest hack of the week has grown old and tired.  Because of the flip flop in modern technological strategies he allows the ground game when it is not practical and chokes it off when it is...he is old time, old school and old hat but it was sweet when it lasted.

So Jaka, I guess what you are really saying is that you support Golfweek and the splitting of the list into Modern and Classic?   Now that you have seen the light, maybe Brad will put you on the panel at your next meeting with him.

[ForkaB]

Rich, it was the 2nd green at Dornoch. But that's the limit of Ross' involvement there. The longtime club secretary did not get along with him and limited his work to that one hole. Besides, Ross wouldn't recognize much of the course today, since so many of the holes, including 7-11, 13 and 16 were established after WWII.  

Brad

What have you been smoking today!

A Ross scholar such as yourself should know that DJR was involved in the redesign of 1 and 2 at Dornoch, but that his plan to resite the 2nd into a punchbowl to the right was nixed by John Sutherland (thankfully!).  He did in fact design the new 1st green (in 1921).  Also, you are dead wrong in saying that 13 and 16 are post WWII holes.  13 was an early hole which was closed in 1904 and resurrected in 1943.  16 is an original Old Tom Morris hole which has existed largely unchanged since the turn of the last century.

Now take a deep beath.....

Rich

NB--Edited to minimize patronisingnessicity.......

[Brad Klein]

Must be smoking dope. Besides, it was a mistake to lend my last copy of the Ross bio to Kavanaugh. Maybe now he'll return it.

Anyway, I welcome the correction, Rich, but will, in fact, split the difference with you. I was looking for Sutherland's comment about Ross' work and you are right, it was the first green he worked on and the 2nd green they stopped him on. However. the present 13th was taken out by 1906, then reangled to the left of its old axis long after Ross left and is not really the same hole he had known. The present 16th was in place, though as a shorter hole and with the line of play and green even closer to the edge than was the case after WWII. Damned details.

[Mike_Young]

Jaka,
I don't know if I would call it running his course or not but I would think some of the hype would start to fall away as with anyother hype.  Personally I  think Ross just had a system and went about his business.  He did not complicate it nearly as much as some would make us think.  I do think architects have gotten better but in doing so have been asked to work on sites that Ross would not consider.  Don't get me wrong I enjoy his work but I appreciate the simplicity of it much more than I wish to complicate it for the sake of marketing.

[TEPaul]

"Because of the flip flop in modern technological strategies he allows the ground game when it is not practical and chokes it off when it is...he is old time, old school and old hat but it was sweet when it lasted."

JohnB:

I don't know what you're referring to by 'he cokes it off when it is practical', but for reestablising the ground game option when it is practical on Ross courses the "ideal maintenance meld" will take care of that.

[JakaB]

TEPaul,

Maintenance meld died last year at Shinnecock...it was great for the six months it lasted.  We live in world of high rough and large trees now my friend.....Get out the pine box for Pinehurst this 05 because the girl will soon be laid to rest a short six years after her prom....I didn't write the book I'm just reading it to ya..

[TEPaul]

JohnB:

The "Ideal Maitenance Meld" (or "IMM) is developing and just beginning to be applied and will be the coming thing in the future on classic style architecture. These older courses will really start to sing with it. I can't help it if you have no idea what it is or how it works. Fazio courses don't need it---they're just one dimensional aerial designs anyway!  

[ForkaB]

Must be smoking dope. Besides, it was a mistake to lend my last copy of the Ross bio to Kavanaugh. Maybe now he'll return it.

Anyway, I welcome the correction, Rich, but will, in fact, split the difference with you. I was looking for Sutherland's comment about Ross' work and you are right, it was the first green he worked on and the 2nd green they stopped him on. However. the present 13th was taken out by 1906, then reangled to the left of its old axis long after Ross left and is not really the same hole he had known. The present 16th was in place, though as a shorter hole and with the line of play and green even closer to the edge than was the case after WWII. Damned details.

Speaking of details, Brad, 16 was 375 in 1892 when Ross was around, pretty much the same as today (357-402).  Sorry for being pedantic, but I'm just wrapping up a book on Dornoch and my mind is full of such minutia these days.....

TEP

Don't forget to trademark or copyright "IMM."

Is the IMM (TM) for any Fazio course some sort of Zen Koan, like one hand clapping?

[Brent Hutto]

I think it was Horace who wrote.

"Those that are mighty shall fall and those that have fallen shall surely rise again."

So was that before or after Horace called Lone Wolf?