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Patrick_Mucci

I saw a statistic that startled me.

Tiger ranked 49th out of 50 in driving accuracy at The Masters.

I also noticed Tiger and others swinging harder then I could ever imagine a PGA tour player swinging a wood.

Can today's architects present any challenge to the PGA tour pro's driver while not adversely affecting the rest of the golf world ?

If so, how ?

Are cross bunkers the answer ?

Jim_Kennedy

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2005, 08:40:12 PM »
Pat,
Cross bunkering wouldn't have affected Tiger, given that accuracy statistic.  ;)

It seems that no matter where the challenges are the Pros have a way to avoid them, not necessarily anything different than the rest of us try to do.
Cross bunkering is one way. Toughening up landing areas with lumpy terrain is another, so is narrowing the margins of some fairways. I see length as it's own reward as meaning just that, if the Tour player can bomb it out there some 300+ yards then the advantage is already their's, they don't it need any easier.  
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

James Bennett

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2005, 09:09:33 PM »
Didn't Paul McCartney write a song about this, ahead of his time.  Something about 'Magneto and Titanium Man'.   ;)They wouldn't be swinging that hard with wood (or even steel) at the end of their shaft.
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

A.G._Crockett

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2005, 09:32:09 PM »
Patrick,
Do you think the rough at ANGC contributes to the "fearlessness" of the players by making the course play in a way other than what was intended?  What is your take on that part of the equation?  It seems to me that now that the course has been lengthened, that trying it in the original no rough setup would be interesting indeed.  Tiger's drive on 18 in the final round would be a good case in point; it appeared to me that the rough stopped that drive from much worse trouble.

Also, it seems to me that relatively wild drivers of the golf ball have prospered before at Augusta; Ballesteros, Olazabal, Crenshaw occur to me quickly.  The genius of the course is that it allows recoveries and rewards tremendous imagination and skill around the greens.  Tiger is, of course, longer than those guys, but fits that pattern at this point in his career.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2005, 10:05:13 PM »
I saw a statistic that startled me.

Can today's architects present any challenge to the PGA tour pro's driver while not adversely affecting the rest of the golf world ?

If so, how ?

Are cross bunkers the answer ?

If conventional wisdom is that they can get more spin out of a modern sand bunker, I think we would have pros yelling "Get in the bunker" on tee shots as well as approaches....

I tend to think that more contour in the fairway is the answer, at over 290 yards or so from the tee.  Features like NGLA's "Hogback" Fairway, that would deflect shots well into the roughs, perhaps, or just greater contour in general, so that they would be hitting off some kind of unusual lie and have a unique shot every time.  

I know some gca types who think they should provide that kind of contour on the TEE to provide the tee shot challenge, not the fairway!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2005, 10:20:36 PM »
"Can today's architects present any challenge to the PGA tour pro's driver while not adversely affecting the rest of the golf world ?
If so, how ?
Are cross bunkers the answer?"

Cross hazards are not the answer because that basically dials down to nothing the temptation to whale away with a driver. For a guy like Woods what you want to do is put maybe just one pot bunker three yards in diameter in the middle of about a 40 yard wide fairway at maybe 320yds. Something that small would not dial down the temptation to whale away with a driver. Frankly, even for a guy with Woods's talent he would probably be somewhat undecided to actually try to avoid it or to aim right at it under the theory that even if he did aim at it he probably wouldn't hit it. But something like that will always get in a good player's head.  ;)

For the rest it would be of no consequence---they couldn't reach it off the tee and they'd be sailing over it on the second shot. With extreme distance there should be a premium on accuracy too, and a little three yard wide diameter pot would be just the ticket.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2005, 10:24:48 PM by TEPaul »

JESII

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2005, 10:54:23 PM »
How about a large oak tree not far from the tee that forces the player to work the ball one way or the other?

I think specimen trees are badly under-utilized, and in the proper situation do exactly what needs to be done to bring back the value of controling the ball with the driver.

David_Elvins

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2005, 12:04:22 AM »
Pat Mucci,

Obviously you know Augusta better than I do, but my take on the situation would be that the major defense against wayward drives at Augusta would be the greens.  Most of the greens there are designed to be attacked from certain angles depending on the pin position.  However, when the rain came down and the greens became soft, the emphasis on attacking from the right angle decreased, making recovery shots easier and reducing the punishment for wild drives.  Of course, due to the soft conditions, wild drives did not run into as much trouble either.

So, in summary, a wet couse with little rough provides little defense on wayward drives.  Like St Andrews and Royal Melbourne, Augusta need firm conditions to punish bad (or less than perfect) drives.  Any other solution would, I believe, compromise the 'design intent' of the course.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2005, 07:44:53 AM »
David Elvins,

The problem with mounting your last line of defense at the green end is that it affects everyone, even the golfers who lack strength, distance and touch, the rest of us.

Also, Woods hit short irons or wedges into greens that others were hitting medium to long irons into, so beefing up the defenses at the green end only helps the long driver who hits a wedge into the green, and not the golfer who hits it in the fairway 50 yards shorter.

With today's wedges, dense, high rough doesn't seem to impede these fellows from 120 yards and in.

AG Crockett,

Tiger layed up with a three wood on # 18.

If the course was meant to play as originally designed, he would have taken a driver and hit a sand wedge from left and short of the green.   Remember, those fairway bunkers are a relatively recent addition.

Marshalling all of your defenses at the green end won't work as it adversely impacts the less skilled player, the vast preponderance of the golfing world.

I'm not suggesting that dense, high rough is the answer,
I"m asking what can be done with architectural features to challenge drives, errant and accurate, in these NEW drive zones.  And, not just at ANGC, but everywhere.

Jeff Brauer,

I've always been fascinated with the "Narrows" hole at NGLA, at both the fairway and green end.

NGLA is replete with the use of spines, in the fairways and the greens, and I think it is a viable defense, despite the need to "construct" the feature and its feeding qualities.

If the theory, that the only way to reward a good drive is to penalize a bad drive, is valid, then why not create havoc in the 280-340 range, a range that will barely affect the rest of the golfing world ?

Philippe Binette

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2005, 09:35:46 AM »
Make them turn the ball, left to right, right to left...

Did you guys saw how short DiMarco was in the last round, playing safe fades...

Of course, don't put stupid rough like on the right of 14th at ANGC, that would protect the ball from going farther right....

If Fazio could understand the concept of the course....

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2005, 10:57:03 AM »
As much as I dislike the concept of "setting up "a course to help or hinder a specific group of players, perhaps the time has come to pinch in the fairways at a certain length to encourage a little more accuracy.
I fail to agree that rough is not a deterrent, at TPC it certainly served to take rhe long knockers out of the picture once they started to miss fairways. The same was found at Bay Hill.
So I maintain my stance that a more severe rough, with firmer fairways and greens serves the purpose.
ANGC is rather unique however, and I would not want to see the growth of 4 inch bermuda rough just to prove the point.
Firmer fairways at ANGC serve to make the ball run into trouble, but with all the rain last week we were not able to see that.
On the monday the course set up was firm and fast but all the rain took care of that.
So perhaps all the rain helped Tiger win..or was it just the advantage gained from mud gate ;D
Yes Tiger was ranked very low on the accuracy scale, but this is Tiger..he is different from the rest anyway.
There had never been anybody who could play from Tiger's drives and still win...including Seve..so I do not think we should worry about his stats too much

JESII

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2005, 11:10:04 AM »
So perhaps all the rain helped Tiger win..or was it just the advantage gained from mud gate ;D

There is only one reason Tiger won that tournament, MUDGATE! No question about it, and from what I hear DiMarco has hired Shivas to lobby with him to the USGA/R&A to have that rule changed. :D.

JESII

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2005, 11:18:34 AM »
My recall is at an all time low right now, but do Winged Foot or Oak Hill have a few holes on which a large tree not far from the championship tee virtuall forces the player to work the ball one way or the other? I know you can't plant a 70 foot tall tree, but you can frequently find such a tree when building the new back tee. I selected those courses, because I do remember walking off each (Oak Hill East and Winged Foot West) thinking they were phenomenal driving courses, but please don't limit thoughts to simply those two.

George Pazin

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2005, 11:34:00 AM »
I think Winged Foot deforrested recently, so there may not be much left there. Winged Foot East featured the somewhat famous Elm, if I remember correctly, but I think it was more of a shade tree.

Shame on you for suggesting a tree be utilized! ;D That's not the GCA party line at all.

I still think the reason TPC rewarded accuracy was the green complexes, not the rough. Someone else awhile back - I think it may have been AG Crockett - suggested that fairways hit is a really inefficient stat. It says nothing about how much you miss a fairway by or if you miss it on the "correct" side or the bad side.

Cross bunkers sound great, but I think Tom D pointed out that they tend to penalize the lesser player far more, because for the better player the decision is too clear cut.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2005, 12:20:37 PM »
George the green complexes are the same every year..so how do you explain this being the only year that all the long knockers were out of contention?

The only thing that seperated this year from a normal TPC year was the inability to cut the rough due to the rains...which also served to soften the greens and make the geen complexes less severe.
I agree that the green complexes are what makes TPC tough..but they come more into play{penalty for missing the greens themslves}when the rough prevents the players from hitting their noral high spinning shots from"semi rough"

What do you think?

George Pazin

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2005, 12:34:34 PM »
Interesting thoughts, I need to grab a couple beers at lunch so I can come back and refute your sound logic.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tony_Chapman

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2005, 12:55:59 PM »
What they should do is eliminate rough, especially at Augusta. Driving the ball straight is the least important thing on Tour right now.

So, they should eliminate rough and put some small bunkers (as TEPaul mentions) just like the one smack in the middle of the fairway on 17 at Wildhorse that you can't even see from the tee. I'll be you that bunker has irked a few long hitters in its day!1  ;D

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2005, 02:45:11 PM »
Tony,
Let me get this right..so from your last post...... are you endorsing the philosophy that driving the ball straight should not be an integral part of the game anymore?

Thus that particular skill should no longer be relevant?

Tony_Chapman

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2005, 03:44:27 PM »
Tony,
Let me get this right..so from your last post...... are you endorsing the philosophy that driving the ball straight should not be an integral part of the game anymore?

Thus that particular skill should no longer be relevant?

Possibly and I hate to say that. I believe I read a stat that the scoring average at holes 11 and 15 at AGNC has gown DOWN since they added the trees.

Didn't Pete Dye once say that if you got a PGA player thinking, you had them. Well, you tell me what thinking is involved with a bunch of tree-line fairways where you have to put the ball in play. If you can give a guy multiple options, he might choose the wrong one.

With today's technology the best way to combat it is by making the ball bounce all over the place. Does St. Andrew's have rough??

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2005, 04:00:35 PM »
No St Andrews does not have rough, but if the wind fails to blow, just see how many scores sub 66 that you see...BUNCHES

I certainly am not arguing with you, but I think that TPC and Bay Hill both served to show what you can do with some more than average penal rough.
I for one am not be willing to give up on accuracy off the tee meaning something.
If I ever do, I  feel the eyes of Travis , Flynn, Wilson and Crump  would be  ready to burn me alive. ;)

JESII

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2005, 04:01:00 PM »
I am a huge proponent of openness off the tee as well as firm and fast conditioning, and have no need for the golf course to be "green" at all. That being said, when a course is prepared and set up that way for a single event it is 100% at the mercy of the weather.

Committees place a very high level of pride in their course being tough, and defending par as well as possible, but if it rains alot in the days or weeks leading up the course looses all of its teeth. Courses like Augusta, or Baltusrol, that have always been closely associated with major championships make their decisions the way they do because they can't guarantee weathere

Pete Lavallee

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2005, 04:47:09 PM »
MWP,

"Accurate Driving Should Be It's Own Reward", by this I mean that without correct placement length is meaningless. We saw this displayed wonderfully at Augusta  last Sun. A prime example was on 17; DeMarco hits the middle of the fairway and has a great angle with a mid iron to the center of the green, where even a slight miss would not have been penalized. His reward was a makeable birdie putt. Tiger's out of his shoes blast leaves him only 125 yards from the front (Steve Williams paced it off) and with nothing in his way was penalized dramatically for coming up only a few yards short; a bogey ensued. The contouring of the green provided a reward for staightness, or the  correct placement if you will. Resorting to maintaining ankle deep rough to provide an emphasis on accuracy is misguided in my opinion. Greenside contouring should be the primary defense to long bombers.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2005, 04:48:48 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

George Pazin

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2005, 05:37:08 PM »
Pete explained in one paragraph what I've been trying to say for a few months now. :)

Weren't the first two rounds at TPC relatively low, prior to the wind rolling in?

I'm happy to see accuracy restored, I'd just rather see it done through interesting and challenging green complexes than thick rough.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tony_Chapman

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Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2005, 05:41:04 PM »
MWP,

"Accurate Driving Should Be It's Own Reward", by this I mean that without correct placement length is meaningless. We saw this displayed wonderfully at Augusta  last Sun. A prime example was on 17; DeMarco hits the middle of the fairway and has a great angle with a mid iron to the center of the green, where even a slight miss would not have been penalized. His reward was a makeable birdie putt. Tiger's out of his shoes blast leaves him only 125 yards from the front (Steve Williams paced it off) and with nothing in his way was penalized dramatically for coming up only a few yards short; a bogey ensued. The contouring of the green provided a reward for staightness, or the  correct placement if you will. Resorting to maintaining ankle deep rough to provide an emphasis on accuracy is misguided in my opinion. Greenside contouring should be the primary defense to long bombers.

Pete - That's a damn fine post right there. It's what I was trying to say as well, but you hit the nail on the head.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The insignificance of architectural features to PGA drives
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2005, 06:04:54 PM »
Shivas,

How would you describe Tiger's tee shots on the last 9 holes ?

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