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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2005, 02:56:04 PM »
Geoffrey - You're joking, right?
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Jonathan McCord

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2005, 03:10:17 PM »
   Fazio has certainly done some great work.  I may be a little biased in saying this because I worked there, but Spring Hill Golf Club, Wayzata, Minnesota is pretty darn good.  It starts out with a 341 yard par four that is definatly driveable.

   The last five holes are also amazing.  If you have played there, then you will agree, that the sixteenth is one of the best par 5's anywhere.  It only plays 508 yards, but if you choose to go for the green, you will have a 220 - 200 yard approach shot that is about 25-35 feet uphill.  A truly spectacular course that is one of the most private in the Minneapolis area.
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"Read it, Roll it, Hole it."

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2005, 03:18:40 PM »
Quote from: Geoffrey_Walsh on April 13, 2005, 02:52:44 PM
George - do you mean Pelican Hill?

Yes, that is what I meant.
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Thomas_Brown

Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2005, 03:50:24 PM »
No contest - The Preserve
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Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2005, 03:58:34 PM »
SPDB,

I wasn't joking about Hudson National.  Of the few Fazio courses I have played, I thought that site had the greatest potential.  There aren't many parcels of land left in the NYC area that have the elevation changes and sweeping views of the Hudson River like that one.

What are your thoughts on that site?
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A_Clay_Man

Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2005, 04:14:11 PM »
George not only means Pelican Hill, he means Rolling Oaks.

As for your question about the complex. I get the feeling the PB course is closer to the original terrain. The sandy soil in that part of Fl. is evident everywhere on the PB. And hardly on the RO.
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Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2005, 04:17:27 PM »
Adam,

Isn't the Pelican Hill complex (includes two courses) located in Newport Beach, CA not Florida?
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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2005, 04:22:16 PM »
Sleep deprivation must be catching up with me. I did mean Rolling Oak, if that is the other course at WW.

There is no connection between my two scenarios, with WW and Pelican Hill. Yes, I mean Pelican Hill, the one in Cali.
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

A_Clay_Man

Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2005, 04:23:28 PM »
Yes, Geoffery

The WW complex is closer to Tampa.

George is at least not geographically biased when he makes slight memory losses.

Anybody with an infant,  is allowed many mistakes.
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S. Huffstutler

Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2005, 04:23:42 PM »
WW Pine Barrens. Bonita Bay East courses are pretty damn good, too.

steve
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A_Clay_Man

Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2005, 04:26:29 PM »
Truthfully, I thought VN was an interesting site. Perfect rolls for golf. TF's use of the water hazards on the par 3's were some of the best set I've seen.

WAAAY better than TOD  ;D
« Last Edit: April 13, 2005, 04:42:08 PM by Adam Clayman »
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Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2005, 04:27:01 PM »
What about Victoria National?  I haven't been there but it looks great from what I have seen...
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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2005, 04:31:22 PM »
Geoffrey - I thought it was a very difficult site, and that Fazio did a pretty good job in spite of it. What do you reckon the elevation change is from 4 Tee to 16 green? The problem is that it doesn't roll, the elevation change is a consistent fall.
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jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2005, 04:36:10 PM »
A couple of posters have stated what their favorite Fazio COURSE is.  I think the question is what is his best SITE. The two are not the same thing. Some of his better courses are built on very mediocre sites. In fact, some might argue that his best course is Shadow Creek and it was built on his worst site. I have never seen the place, so I would not know. I will say that I consider Champion Hills in Hendersonville, NC to be the best design job I have seen him do. I would not give the course more than a 4 or 5, but it is remarkable that he was able to accomplish even that on such a severe site.

Many architects can design an excellent course on an excellent site. Fazio and Dye are two of the best at producing a pretty good product on a seriously flawed site.

The guys from the golden age rarely were stuck with poor sites, because they were not dealing with housing developments and rarely with resorts. In those days not many were trying to build courses in the wetlands of the southeast coast, nor in the mountains, nor in the desert. The owners usually confined their site search to sites they were suitable for golf courses.
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"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2005, 04:38:06 PM »
Jim - Have you been to Hudson National? I've been to Champion Hills, and its site makes Champion Hills look like child's play by comparison.
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cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2005, 05:33:27 PM »
My opinion of the site at the Preserve.

Unbelievable property, I was almost astonished by the drive from the front gate to the clubhouse. I was expecting an equally impressive course.

The site they chose was out in the open, and I wondered why they picked that.

I don't think they picked the best site given all the land they had, the land if fantastic, nor do I think the routing Fazio did was particulary good.

I think they pick the best land for the tee boxes, and after that, it was kind of ordinary.

They did not utilize the ravines, lakes, wooded areas for any of the greens.

On the other hand, if you compare the Preserve to Mayacama, I think Jim Lipe had a great site and routed it well and used it to its potential.
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2005, 05:33:34 PM »
SPDB;

Nope, never been to Hudson National. I'll admit that when I make it to New York, I focus on the classic courses. There are so many and relatively few highly regarded modern courses. Down here it's just the opposite. I can see all the modern courses I want in the SE, but real classic courses are a little scarce. Maybe that explains why I live in Pinehurst. Next time I'm up that way I'll try to get to Hudson National. Another thing, I usually avoid courses with "National" in their names unless there is also an "Augusta". But then, I did like Dallas National, so that shoots that bias down.
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"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2005, 07:55:22 PM »
How about Wild Dunes as a top Fazio site?  In spite of its running through a housing development, the site has a good variety of scenic values, with holes running along or through ocean front, woods, rising sand dunes with some great gnarly old trees, and Carolinas low country marsh. I'm not positive about the soils conditions, but the course seemed well drained shortly after a couple days of rain.
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T_MacWood

Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2005, 06:14:02 AM »
Wild Dunes was one I thought of as well, which would be ironic, his first big job was his best site.

What is outstanding about the sites at the Preserve, Dallas National and Spring Hill?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2005, 06:15:01 AM by Tom MacWood »
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Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2005, 06:39:46 AM »
Preserve is his best site followed by Pine Barrens and Vic Nat.  Hudson National is beautiful but way too hilly.

Ironically his best course is located on his worst site!  Shadow Creek.

JC
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T_MacWood

Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2005, 06:46:48 AM »
What are the outstanding natural attributes of The Preserve...other than the lovely views, good food and jacuzzis?

Was the Pine Barren's site naturally sandy or did they recreate the PV-like setting?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2005, 06:49:03 AM by Tom MacWood »
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David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2005, 06:52:01 AM »
Jonathan:

Is Shadow Creek Fazio's greatest golf course, or his greatest work of art?
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Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2005, 06:58:12 AM »
David - my degrees are in mechanical engineering.  As also a devoted golfer you can imagine how I marvel at the place.  I sure agree it's eye candy on steriods but it is also a collection of well-varied thoroughly enjoyable golf holes.  I've played there a number of times and my opinion doesn't change.

JC
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A_Clay_Man

Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2005, 08:58:52 AM »
Cary- For the final time, The Faz inherented the routing at the Preserve, from Peter Stocker and SAndy Tatum.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2005, 09:00:08 AM by Adam Clayman »
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Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TFazio's best site
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2005, 09:04:07 AM »
Cary,
Adam as you know is correct, but your points are none the less perfectly valid and correct.
I have long wondered just what a tremendous course it could have been if the likes of TD or C&C or one of the other :"like" architects had been able to have the project...or for that matter Fazio had been on board from the begining.
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