Where is the proof that Fazio builds easy uninteresting greensites..

[JakaB]

I just don't see it in the small sample of courses I have played and seen on TV....

[Joel_Stewart]

Shadow Creek would be a good example.  

[TEPaul]

John B. Kavanaugh;

Why exactly did you post this thread?

[JakaB]

TePaul,

Maybe it is just because I am such a poor chipper and putter that I'm not in tune with the boring green.....

[TEPaul]

JohnB;

Thanks. Give me a week or two to think about the meaning of that.  

[Mike Nuzzo]

The last 3 I've seen, Dallas National, Sand Ridge and Champions Jack Rabbit, all have interesting green complexes.  
Although they are not low in the way Tom and Kelly are discussing on the Art thread.

[Gerry B]

my home course in toronto is a george and tom fazio collaboration and the green complexes could never be referred to as easy and uninteresting from even the harhest fazio critics.

[TEPaul]

What was the name of that south Florida Fazio course that held a tour stop in the Florida swing after Doral last year that had big old pushed up greens where approach shots slipped off of easily? Those Fazio greens weren't easy or uninteresting.

[jim_lewis]

I have always been able to understand most of the raps on Fazio that I read on this site, except one. I never have understood the assertion that his greens are too bland and uninteresting. On many of the approximately 60 Fazio courses I have played, his greens are the best feature of the course.
Anyone who thinks his greens are dull and easy probably hasn't played my at my club. Most of our greens are mindbenders.

[A_Clay_Man]

I honestly don't recall this specific criticism either.

[Mark Brown]

Fazio greens: what I don't like is that most of them are huge and have broad slopes (not greens within greens) so mentally it's hard to focus on the target and hit it within birdies range. Also a lot of the putts have multiple breaks -- like uphill first then downhill which often translates into an 8 footer for the second putt.

[John Kirk]

I've only played one Fazio - Pelican Hill Ocean, about 15 years ago.  The greens were lightning fast and sloped, very difficult.

Seems to me Tom Fazio builds difficult courses with tricky greens.

[George Pazin]

Where is the quote from someone saying he does?

My experience with what is approaching 6 years on this site is that few criticise Fazio for easy uninteresting greens. The general Fazio criticisms are: 1) "restoration" practices that could be generously referred to as "renovation" (though the critics are usually not generous in their words) and 2) an emphasis on "beauty" (his idea of beauty, anyway) over the strategic elements of golf (his own stated preference, as outlined in his book).

I'm up to 4 Fazios now and I'd say the greens are the strengths of the 4, nary an uninteresting one in all 72 holes (not that I remember all 72, but I'll save that criticism for another thread ).

Tom P -

You're of course referring to Mirasol, the number one course on my Fazio wish list.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Edit: I have been told off line that Strantz may not have been the on-site guy at WWPB, but I think it is still a good comparison of courses.

Jaka,

I would probably say "not as interesting". A good example for me is Tobacco Road (Mike Strantz alone, typically unranked) versus World Woods Pine Barrens (Fazio with Mike Strantz doing the on-site work so I am told, typically ranked). Two Pine Valley-like daily fee courses.

Tobacco Road is a fun wild ride as has been described here before. Some of the greens (and holes) are over the top, and I just can't see Tom Fazio building a green like this:

Tobacco Road 7th Green


I think greens and holes like this prevent Tobacco Road from being a "ranked" course.

At WWPB, it is my understanding that Mike Strantz did the on-site work when he worked for Fazio. The course is visually stunning as you would expect from both, and there is little/no over the top stuff either. I would call this a typical green at WWPB. Fazio probably kept Strantz from trying some over the top stuff.

14th Green WWPB


It is definitely not "not interesting", and it is definitely not a wild ride. Mirasol is the only Fazio where I have seen (TV) some wild greens, and they did not seem to be too popular with the PGA pros. So Fazio builds consitency rather than take chances from what I have seen. The wild stuff tends to be either loved or hated here, and that is why Fazio will probably never be embraced by GCA. However, developers can sell very good consistent courses as part of their life style developments and Fazio will always be popular with them.

10 rounds to play either, I would probably go TR 6 and WWPB 4, but I played very well my day at TR.

Please tell us why VN's are interesting to you, and don't give me the "I have lousy hands around the greens so I really don't know" routine, because I now know better.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

Prosecution exhibit A:  White Columns, GA.

However, I would not characterize all Fazio greens as easy or uninteresting.  On a lot of his early courses the greens were quite sloped and difficult ... though I can't say I liked those greens either.

To me his general problem is that the greens don't fit into the green sites very well.  The first course at Belfair is a great example; they said they were building Pinehurst No. 2 style chipping areas, but the greens were all a bit too high in relation to the off-green areas, and the tie-in slopes weren't good.  [That would be a fantastic course if he'd gotten that part right, by the way.]

I don't like to generalize and Mr. Fazio has built a LOT of courses ... I must have seen at least thirty of them.  I will say I've seen him try a lot of different things.  But I don't think the greens were the best part of any Tom Fazio course I've seen.

[Steve Lapper]

A couple of good examples of the so "un"-distinguished greensites:

 Trump Bedminister
 Trump National (Briarcliff Manor)
 Shadow Creek
 The Ridge at Back Brook
 The Quarry
 Galloway National

Interestingly, the above courses are mostly artificial creations heavily influenced by egomaniacs who seek something so "unique or special" that they are often willing to push Team Fazio to operate outside of their normal bounds.

I'd venture to say that given my experience at places like Mirasol, WWPB, Pelican Hill, Hudson Nat'l, Estancia, Wade Hampton and even the Pine Hills and Maroon Creek's of the world, accusing Fazio of building "uninteresting greens" just wouldn't stand up for the most part.

Instead, it appears that his willingness to pander to the titanic ego's of the business world have a very apparent and corrupting effect on the outcome of his work.....kind of like catching a VD from only your best paying johns!
 
 Is it the demands on non-conformity of result that drive the design? Or is it the desire to build something "beautiful and playable?"

[A_Clay_Man]

Mike Sweeney-

I just can't see Tom Fazio building a green like this:

While I don't know who was on-site but, The Preserve, outside of Carmel Ca. has at least one green that is as wild, or wilder, than the one you have pictured.

[cary lichtenstein]

The Preserve has a long par 4, I think the 12th or 16 that is pretty wild, but in my humble opinion, Fazio picked excellent sites in his routing for the tee complexes, but the green complexes both from a site standpoint and an execution standpoint. left much to be desired.

If you compare The Preserve to Mayacama, both the routing and the execution is way better at Mayacama. Jim Lipe did an outstanding job there.

Given all the land in Preserve Site, it thought they could have routed this course way better, taking advantage of all the elevation changes, ravines, etc., that they only used for the tee boxes.

All in all, the greens underwhelmed both me and my wife. What should have been an outstanding course at The Preserve was just underdeveloped.

The Stantz redo at Monterey Peninsula CC on the other hand was outstanding.

[Pete Buczkowski]

Jaka,

As much as I hate to admit it, I think my old home course at UNC might qualify as having relatively easy, uninteresting greensites.  But how would you define it?  Here's how I would:  When you don't have to worry about where your misses are on or around the green.  There are quite a few greens there where you can hit it anywhere on the green (or shortside yourself) and you are just fine.  Now, there are exceptions to certain pins on every green, so that it can be set up difficult for a college tournament.  But, for everyday play it is not a prime shot requirement.

By my count, the greens on 3, 5, 8, 10, 13, and the back halves of 1 & 14 fit this relatively boring/easy category.  There are others which I would call very interesting, such as #2, 7, and 17.  Keep in mind I am horribly biased in favor of this course so others might see even more than me.

Mike -

I thought the right green on WWPB #12, and possibly #3, would fit in very well at Tobacco Road.  Its just not the general theme of that course.

[Tom_Doak]

Just for the record, I think greens contours are Mr. Strantz's biggest weakness as well.  He either makes them flat or extreme [like the 7-foot tiers at Royal New Kent], but they lack the little internal contours which makes classic greens special, as Mike S. opined earlier in this thread.

I saw only a few holes of the re-do at MPCC but while I thought the re-routing and the visuals and the new hazards were all outstanding, the greens complexes [as far as chipping and putting] were the weakest part of the design.

If The Preserve had a really good set of greens, on top of that setting, it would be well on its way to being one of the best courses in America, but who really thinks that it is?

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Tom, I had the same impression of Tobacco Road, there were some extreme slopes, but the more gentle shapes were long, broad slopes with no broken relief, which is fine to some extent, but to me it seemed liked a programmed response rather than a spontanious action that can make some interesting movements on a putting surface.  

Sometime ago I received a form letter from Whitten asking me to respond to a series of questions regarding the impact of Fazio on the world of architecture.  Has that been published?  

I may be on the wrong thread but I thought on this one or another Fazio thread JakaB asked for proof that many of the Fazio courses have repetative features, and he asked for proof.  I have had similar discussions regarding this issue with a couple of shapers, and that type of process, the replication of holes and features from project to project was alleged.  Is this a worthy issue for critical analysis, and if so is there a golf publication that would undertake this type of investigative work.  Why are these questions being asked in this forum, but never do you see any investigative pieces on these types of issues in the golf magazines?  I mean, there are some serious critical publications for other fields of art and design, but none for golf architecture.

O/T but just for some relief, I have never liked Bob Dylan.  I bought Blonde on Blonde to give him a chance, and shelved it for sometime.  For what ever reason the past two weeks it has been the only thing on my disc player (other than Sticky Fingers, which is so good).  The album, and Dylan have really captured my imagination.  Was I so wrong for so many years, or have my tastes in music diminished?  Besides this album, what are some of his very best albums, I may have to continue this indulgance because Blonde on Blonde is damn good!!!

[BCrosby]

Kelly -

Highway 61 Revisited

Nashville Skyline

[wsmorrison]

KBM,

Blonde on Blonde is awesome, but there's so much more.

Bob,

How could you forget The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan?  That may be my single favorite album of all time!  Blood on the Tracks is excellent as well.  

Kelly, I'd check out Dylan's first album, Bob Dylan, it is great folk stuff.  John Wesley Harding, Planet Waves because of "Forever Young" and Before the Flood with the Band should all be checked out.   Dylan's website, bobdylan.com, has a list of all his albums and snippets of all the songs.

[A_Clay_Man]

Bill- It's funny when I reflect back on the Preserve's greens because as a general description I thought they were too contained. But then features like the back of the first par 5. (is it #3?) or, those Boobs on the tenth (?)(I only caddied the course, so I'm having trouble remembering) were the wildest, almost ridiculous, but I appreciate the attempt at shock value. The best greens were at the second and that Par 4 on the back. The one with the severe hillside right, that semi-saddles over a significant ridge. (Might be #12?)

The rest of them, save for perhaps the short two shot 4th (the one right after the first par 5) were pretty much forgetable.

[Matt Kardash]

i prefer leonard cohen, but bob dylan is good.