Little dips/bumps in front of greens

[ForkaB]

I recently played Nairn, and really liked the 15th (even though I didn't manage to complete it.... ).

It is a 306 yard driveable hole which is protected right and left by trees, bunkers, etc. but most importantly by a 3-4 foot dip in front of the green.  For most mortals, the dip makes the 2nd shot (particularly to a front pin, such as we experienced) a conundrum.  With 30-70 yards to go, do you try to chip into the dip and run the ball up, or pitch into the bank and hope for a favorable bounce up or try to really spin a lob wedge to stop it on the front of the green?  My partner tried option 2 (from 50 yards) nearly made it (which would have led to a 3) but then ended up with a 5. One of the drives of the flat bellies playing behind us nearly rolled up the slope, but rolled back into the hollow.   Another ended up pin high right, with humps and a bunker between him and the pin.  Both were looking at 4 after nearly driving the green.

I personally find to be boring "ground game shots" which consist of a binary decision of "putt it or flip it."  To me, adding little features (particularly dips and hollows) on the "putt it" line is a fantastic (and too rarely used) architectural feature.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Rich, I agree with you about that hole - a wonderful short par 4, full of interest.  It was fascinating watching the Walker Cup chaps play it in 1999.  It was one of the key holes for generally speaking the home side played it better than the visitors.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

I had dinner Friday night with two members of NGLA.

In the course of conversation I mentioned the subtle dip in front of the 2nd green and its influence on shots, especially when the pin is up front.  What makes this feature more influential is a slight breeze in your face.

Some greens are protected by the incline created by the slight dip, other greens are protected by a similar feature if they're slightly elevated from the fairway.

The greens at Hidden Creek, almost universally, have this feature.

Most golfers NEVER see it and are shocked when their ball, hit just a few feet short of the putting surface, stays there.

What can make this feature even more devilish is if the tee end of the dip is elevated, like at NGLA.

With that feature, balls hit just short of the green stop dead, while balls hit even shorter, are propelled across the green.

This make a front pin positions devilishly diffficult to get close to, if, like the VAST majority of golfers, you try to "squeeze" your approach shot between the front of the green and the pin, rather then playing to the top of the flagstick.

I always look for evidence of this feature when I play new golf courses.  If drainage in the area is good, there's no reason not to see it on a few holes.

My theory is that the old timers created it to frustrate slightly mis-hit shots, or poor thinking.  It's perfect for TEPaul's game.  

[BCrosby]

Those little dips/bumps in front of greens can turn a mediocre hole into a great hole.

They are easy to build, (usually) easy to maintain, a delight to play and endlessly challenging.

Why we don't see more of them in modern designs is beyond me.

Bob

[T_MacWood]

In the book Colt and Co. there is quote from an old codger and friend of CH Alison, saying Alison was a "great man for bumps." Evidently he liked to place those dips and bumps in front of his greens...a design tool he may have borrowed from Burnham and Berrow where he played a lot of his early golf.

[ForkaB]

Thanks, guys.  So I am not alone......

But why (to parpahrase Bob C) do we see see little of this in modern designs?

Any archies out there?  If so, let us know, please.

[RJ_Daley]

IN some cases, the little bumps and humps dips and swales in the foregreen are the only saving grace to an otherwise bland design, if the archie has little to work with.  I played such a relatively new course this week.  It was built on a dead flat series of clayey fields needing the excavation of no less than 8 lakes/ponds to obtain material for feature shaping.  About half the holes had one or more noses or humps at various intervals in the foregreen, some more than one nose offset to make the player think about the approach that is either on the ground, or at what distance to try and land the ball just over the noses, yet stay on the green or near front pins.

These sort of noses and dips need to have the right maintenance meld.  They obviously can't be squishy soft in the foregreen, needing some bounce to make them effective.  So, drainage is a huge factor in those foregreen areas.  Also, the side and back green surrounds need to have the right mowing approach.  If the 3/4 of the remaining green surround (left right and back) is ringed by immediate 2 inch blue grass rough, and the green is saddled or flatish, the effect of the intitial problem of an uncertain bounce in the foregreen is lost.  Without some shoulders to run to collection areas that are mowed for chipping or putting options, the noses in front loose some of their value of adding to the requirement that the player properly negotiate them with deft touch, and even acquiring local knowledge of how the ball might act or break if the ground approach is considered.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

If you'd come to the get together at Hidden Creek you'd see them used extensively.

I suspect that modern day golfers don't appreciate subtleties, needing instead, to have their eyes assaulted by flashier features.

[ForkaB]

Pat

I'd love to come to Hidden Creek, but am otherwise committed those days.  Great job on organising that one.  No matter what TEP says, you seem like a decent guy......

I'm looking forward to post-mortem reviews of the event.

[George_Bahto]

Fronting the Redan hole at CC of Fairfield is one of the more interesting "lumps and bumps" I've seen.

It looks like, during construction, after a heavy rain, a huge, huge fat lady (well, I suppose it could have been a man, but that takes the fun out of the story) sat "her" butt down in the mud ...... use your imagination.

2 interesting hollows with a crest of sorts between, in line with the approach to the putting surface.

....  wonder if she was a blonde ..........

CBM purposely made one in front of the Eden hole at NGLA.

The Biarritz at The Knoll has two angled deflection "bumps" on the "approach" area (front green) which show up clearly on a Charles Banks blueprint of a Biarrtiz green I have in my files.

gb

[James Bennett]

With those bumps, how severe should they be?  Does it depend on the course, ie more severe on hilly terrain, less severe on plains?

I tend to think of these in 'cup size'.  An 'A' cup is probably too small, but a 'D' cup mound too severe.  Any thoughts?

[Doug Siebert]

Rich,

You've hit upon one of my favorite features.  I actively seek these things, on the greens themselves or conveniently located near them, if maintained F&F and mowed down.  Most look upon them as a hazard, I see them as an opportunity.  I'll always take your option A because it increases your margin for error, even though most don't see it that way.

A low pitch/chip that is gauged such that if it lands exactly in the bottom/center of the dip will gain the desired result has a higher success rate than the same shot landing on flat turf.  If you hit it slightly short, you get propelled forward a bit more and end up where you wanted anyway.  If you hit it a bit too far the upslope kills it a bit and still come out A-OK.  If its a full fledged hollow with even sides you can even have shots hit somewhat to the right and left self-correct as well.

Heck, you want to talk strategy, if you show me a hole that's got one of these on say the front right side, I'm going to play my drive out to the right just so I can have the fun of making use of it on my approach!

[David Sneddon]

Rich:

You have more experience over Dornoch than I have, so how would you classify the hollow in front of the 18th ??

[ForkaB]

Rich:

You have more experience over Dornoch than I have, so how would you classify the hollow in front of the 18th ??

I HATE that little bastard of a hollow!  Because it is blind and small, you can't really judge where to land the ball, so it really negates any intelligent ground game shot.  I will grant that it is a damned effective hazard, however.  I've lost count of the times where I've hit what I thought was a perfect shot to that green, only to find my ball in that hollow just a few feet behind my pitchmark in the bank......

As Mark(?) says above, the hollow in front of the 4th at Dornoch is a world class example of a great hollow.

[David Sneddon]

I HATE that little bastard of a hollow!  Because it is blind and small, you can't really judge where to land the ball, so it really negates any intelligent ground game shot.  I will grant that it is a damned effective hazard, however.  I've lost count of the times where I've hit what I thought was a perfect shot to that green, only to find my ball in that hollow just a few feet behind my pitchmark in the bank......

As Mark(?) says above, the hollow in front of the 4th at Dornoch is a world class example of a great hollow.

I looked at it several times, after playing it, then looked at it some more, trying to figure out the best method of negotiating it. Came to a similar conclusion - it is more a hazard to be flown than attempting any ground shot that would result in any degree of predictability.  It's a nasty bugger allright, but the hole would be so much less without it.

Agree with the hollow on the 4th.

There are several at TOC, but the one in front of the 16th is another good example, particularly if you are playing down the right side.