Single biggest shock in GD's newest ranking?

[Ken Fry]

No mention of Taconic Golf Club (or anything really west of Worcester) in the Mass. State ranking.  At least this is one item of consistency with GD Rankings:  I don't believe anyone on their panel has gone west of Worcester in Massachusetts.

Of all the "Best Of..." lists, Golf Digest epitomizes the politics included in these "popularity contests" and the lack of education so many panelist posses.

No offense to Jaka, but Victoria National #21??  It's a good course, but there are MANY more deserving of a better ranking below it.

[THuckaby2]

Doug Siebert:

I don't ignore criticisms - I just disagree with them.   And I honestly do believe GD continues to use the most relevant criteria of any of the magazine lists, and handles the rankings the best of all of them as well.  You all don't like the way GD does things... but more importantly you don't like some of the results.  Oh well... not much can be done.

Bryan:

We get a rather large "guide" which instructs us in pretty great detail what each of the criteria means.  As for how many courses an average raters sees, I don't have the faintest clue.  I remain a simple footsoldier.

Look everyone - I never said the GD list was perfect (well, I did say that right at the beginning, but that was more in jest jibing at friends).  It's not.  Some of the results are very curious to me as well.  But I don't expect my personal opinions to be in constant agreement with any compliation... How boring that would be!

So quibble away.  We did the same thing - but to a LOT lesser extent given the audience here - when the GW list came out.  We'll do the same thing when GM comes out with theirs (and oh will Ran get it then!).  To me it's all just fine...

TH

[Mike_Sweeney]

Thomas,

I love ya, but you are wrong on this one. On GCA, you are the champion of the muni golfer. Due to knowledge, rater card, friends, interest, you get to play many great clubs. Now Golf Digest is sending out a huge signal to the entire industry that only high profile new clubs with hugh budgets and brand name architects have a chance of making The Top 100 list. Yes there are exceptions such as Lester George the architect at Kinloch, but his developer Vinny Giles is a huge figure in the golf world.

Golf Digest is the Mother Ship, careers are made on this list, bank loans are refinanced on this list. This list is perfectly fine if the parameters are great clubs or pretigious clubs or great places to play golf something like that. But architecture it is not.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Mike Sweeney, first of all I appreciate the personal thoughts.

But I am certainly not going to question the management of the GD panel.  They have been very good to me, and despite all of the attacks in this forum, I continue to believe they do a good job and rank things correctly.  Of course getting any admission of this is in here is like preaching the Koran in Vatican City, so what do you expect?  In any case, in my nearly 4 years of involvement with the panel, I have never had any correspondence, contact or anything with Ron Whitten.  It was always made quite clear to me who ran the panel, and those are the names listed in the article.  So I don't see any confusion here at all.

Obviously it is disappointing to me they eliminated "tradition" without telling us, but what the hell, that was a criterion we didn't contribute much to anyway... Doesn't bother me much in the end.

In any case, I have to agree with Joel.  The single biggest shock is the fact Ran himself posted this thread.  We shall take any complaints hereafter about topics concerning ratings and raters with a rather large ocean of salt.

In the meantime, I continue to stand ready to take my lumps in here.  God I love early April.

But fear not, I'll live.  The rest of the world loves the GD list.

TH

Tom--

Now that "Tradition" in not in the formal mix of the ratings, will you now factor that into your numbers?  Will a course like Harbour Town get a bump from you because it was the first major Pete Dye course and that it altered the way courses were built from then on?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom, i assure you golfweek is not perfect either. This is not about comparing them. But to say you agree with the GD rankings period is a bit much. i do dare you to play a few of the courses they rank in Louisiana and to agree with their rankings or even to say you se ehow they got there but would move one or two around is homerism at a level outside of any level of journalistic integrity. I frankly see the state lists at to where the real problems are with both the GW and GD lists.

[THuckaby2]

Mike S:

If I were king, it wouldn't be that way.

I am not king.

And I also don't think it's any clear "signal" being made by GD - at least it's nothing new - when has it ever NOT been this way?  We can wish it would change... but swaying public opinion happens very slowly.  Take heart in the small progresses that have been made - and they are there, if one cares to look beyond biased hatred of GD - as I look at this it is turning forward, not going backwards.

Big name architects and big budgets produce flashy golf courses, which the vast majority of golfers still do prefer.  Now obviously that is bad for golf in many ways... but is it GD's responsibility to fudge the results it receives, for the good of golf?  That can't be right either.

So patience.  I do have a feeling this will continue to turn.  Obviously GW in their lockstep and groupspeak is turning things this way... and more courses do continue to get built like this... so GD will eventually come around, at the same time the general public does.


Mike V:  in future ratings, I will do exactly as instructed by the folks who run the GD panel.  Said instructions are not out yet.  I was just guessing at what might happen under the new "tradition-less" system, that's all.  Heck, I've always felt it could have been easily folded into "ambience", but they don't ask me.  I'd not like a system where it is eliminated completely... because I still do believe it matters.  It shouldn't matter so much to make all the difference in a course's ranking, as it seems to have for a few courses like yours, but it also shouldn't be totally zeroed out.  But if it is, well I shall dutifully go along with it.

Because in the end, my opinion doesn't matter for squat - not as against those who do this for a living, anyway.  I trust that via devoting so much time to this, they know more about it than I do, treating it as a hobby at best.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Tom, i assure you golfweek is not perfect either. This is not about comparing them. But to say you agree with the GD rankings period is a bit much. i do dare you to play a few of the courses they rank in Louisiana and to agree with their rankings or even to say you se ehow they got there but would move one or two around is homerism at a level outside of any level of journalistic integrity. I frankly see the state lists at to where the real problems are with both the GW and GD lists.

JB - that was just stubborness.  Try being on the hot seat preaching the Bible in Baghdad like this and see how you react.

I don't agree with their results period - far from it.  Jeez CA alone has some weirdness I am really scratching my head at, as I said in a post yesterday...  I just do agree with their methodology, but even that I would tweak if I were king.  But as I just said in my last post, I also trust those who do this for a living know what they are doing far better than I do.

TH

[George Pazin]

I think we can all agree that it would be a nicer world if Huck were King.

As to the rankings/ratings stuff, the only thing I would do substantially differently, if I ran a panel, would be to individually examine ballots periodically and eliminate raters with questionable ratings, or at least ask them to explain why they made certain ratings.

For those who feel this would make the list too one dimensional and self selecting, so be it. I'd take the word of one clear thinking critic, be it Ron Whitten, Brad Klein, Geoff Shackelford or whomever, over the results of a panel of "experts".

The best thing about the rankings is they get everyone all feisty! Now we can have some really juicy discussions.

Who wants to dicuss global warming? Affirmative action? The war in Iraq?

 

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Biggest shock -- CC of Charleston, Bulls Bay or any of Kiawah's other resort courses were not on the South Carolina list.  However, as someone with a keen interest in moving The Ocean Course up, I can't complain...

[Jeff Fortson]

Biggest shock is Riviera at #47.

And, yes, I guess I am biased even though I don't work there anymore.


Jeff F.

[david h. carroll]

I echo Jim Franklin on the BCC Five Farms crap!!  What the hell is that???  It's only outdone by the fact that Five Farms is third in Maryland behind Congressional and.....CAVES VALLEY!!!!

[mtp]

I guess Trump played Wannamoisset and thought any course with a par of 69 is a "joke" and requested its removal.
What noone is talking about is Trump's plans to personally design a course in NJ that he guarantees will supplant PV at #1.
Trump Valley

[Dan_Callahan]

I can't understand the placement of Great River on the Top Public list. It makes absolutely no sense. I don't hate Great River as much as many people I know, but to say it is the 34th best public course in the country is outrageous no matter what criteria is used to judge. And to say that it is significantly better than a course like Royal New Kent or Ballyowen or Beechtree is absurd.

Normally I disagree with Golf Digest's rankings here and there, but this one makes no sense. Great River isn't even in the top 10 public courses in New England, let alone top 40 in the country.

[Ken Fry]

I thought of one criteria that should be published with GD rankings:  convenience.

How many great golf courses are not considered for this list because they may be out of the way and not convenient to get to?  (i.e Kingsley Club receives a ranking of 20th in Michigan?!?  Oh, sorry, that's up from 22nd last year!)  I mentioned Taconic earlier and what about The Orchards??  Not even on the Mass. list of courses.

If this is suppose to be a list of "the best courses we can get enough people to go see," that would be one thing.  But this is supposedly a list of the best courses we have within our fine borders (nationally or on a state-by-state basis).  Does it really fit that criteria?

[Jim Franklin]

Sand Hills is #12 and it is pretty difficult to get to so I believe your argument holds no water. Bandon Dunes/Pacific Dunes are not easy to get to either, but they rank pretty high. I look forward to seeing the Kingsley Club this summer and then I will let you know how difficult it is to get there and if it should be higher in my judgement. From what I hear of the place, it should be a lot higher, but I won't pass judgement until then.

I will say that my friends I play with that do not frequent this site and are not raters really enjoy a course that is lush and green with waterfalls and the like. They really don't put much value to a strategic hole. In fact, if a hole takes a driver out of their hands, they hate it. I guess this is what makes the world go round.

[SPDB]

Please tell me where you think I am architecturally offbase.

Mike - It's hard to know where to begin. You're all wet, here.  Where is the discussion about clubhouses impacting the ratings in GD. Please cut and paste for me. Then we'll get down to brass tacks.

Your complaint is with the result, and then to back that up you resort to making up criteria to justify your argument that the ratings system is flawed.

[Ken Fry]

Sand Hills is #12 and it is pretty difficult to get to so I believe your argument holds no water. Bandon Dunes/Pacific Dunes are not easy to get to either, but they rank pretty high.

Jim,

As far as my argument holding water, there are very few people in the golf community that haven't heard of Sand Hills or any of the Bandon courses.  The print media has taken care of that, so let's not pull examples from the top.  Given that case, Crystal Downs is less than an hour away from Kingsley Club yet Crystal is in the top ten domestically.  Could it be so many people made the trip to Arcadia Bluffs and Crystal and neglected to go to Kingsley?

My point is if you look across all the rankings, there is a prejudice to those facilities that have received a great deal of media, regardless of location.  In the next tier of courses, if a facility is not in a convenient location, not many raters will get to see it and its overall ranking, whether nationally or regionally, suffers.

I agree with Matt Ward that having so many people involved all over the world, gaps exist.

[Jim Franklin]

Ken -

I would never go see Arcadia and CD and skip Kingsley and I can't imagine many raters would do that. The raters I know are golf junkies and will go just about anywhere to play something good. Maybe they felt Kingsley didn't stack up to the others. Since I have played none, I don't know. I hope to find out this summer though.

Jim

[Ken Fry]

Jim,

I will only say I'll be very interested in your response when you see Kingsley.

Ken

[Paul Richards]

Andy

>Paul:

I agree! Either it's still April Fools Day or the GD panelists were adding  big bonus points for best classic car museum on property. To even have Rich Harvest Links in the GD Top 100 is travesty enough, but to have it ranked 45th is akin to saying Paris Hilton can act and sing. According to the latest rankings I have personally played 67 of GD's Top 100. As far as I'm concerned it's 66!!!

Even pre restoration Beverly and Rich Harvest Links occupied two entirely different planets architecturally!

Andy Silis



Great post!

Maybe when they removed the points for 'tradition' they put "big bonus points for best classic car museum on property" instead???



 

[John_Cullum]

I must say that my biggest single shock is that Ran Morrissett has an interest in these ratings.

I sincerely regret that I wasted some of my free time to read the list.

[Andy Levett]

             THE 100 BEST COURSES OUTSIDE THE U.S.

     1. St. Andrews (Old) St. Andrews, Scotland
     2. Royal Melbourne G.C. (Composite) Black Rock, Australia
     3. Royal Portrush G.C. (Dunluce) Portrush, N. Ireland
     4. Royal County Down G.C. Newcastle, N. Ireland
     5. Royal Dornoch G.C. (Championship) Dornoch, Scotland
     6. Muirfield Gullane, Scotland
     7. Ballybunion G.C. (Old) Ballybunion, Ireland
     8. New South Wales G.C. Sydney, Australia
     9. National G.C. Woodbridge, Canada
     10. St. George’s G. & C.C. Islington, Canada
     11. Turnberry (Ailsa) Turnberry, Scotland
     12. Carnoustie G.C. (Championship) Carnoustie, Scotland
     13. Kingston Heath G.C. Melbourne, Australia
     14. Hamilton G. & C.C. Ancaster, Canada
     15. Royal Porthcawl G.C. Porthcawl, Wales
     16. Royal St. George’s G.C.Sandwich, England
     17. Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog) La Romana, Dominican Republic
     18. Sunningdale G.C. (Old) Sunningdale, England
     19. Beacon Hall G.C. Aurora, Canada
     20. Kingsbarns G. Links St. Andrews, Scotland
     21. Loch Lomond G.C. Luss, Scotland
     22. Highlands Links Cape Breton, Canada
     23. Swinley Forest G.C. Ascot, England
     24. Hirono G.C. Hyogo, Japan
     25. Leopard Creek G. Estate & C.C. Malelane, South Africa
     26. Royal Birkdale G.C. Southport, England
     27. Lahinch G.C. (Old) Lahinch, Ireland
     28. Golf de Morfontaine Morfontaine, France
     29. Gary Player C.C. Sun City, S. Africa
     30. Portmarnock G.C. (Old) Portmarnock, Ireland
     31. Royal Westmoreland G. & C.C. St. James, Barbados
     32. Royal Adelaide G.C. Adelaide, Australia
     33. Le Golf National (L’Albatros) Guyancourt, France
     34. Royal Troon G.C. (Old) Troon, Scotland
     35. The National G.C. (Moonah) Cape Schanck, Australia
     36. Royal Lytham and St. Annes G.C. Lytham St. Annes, England
     37. Cruden Bay G.C. Cruden Bay, Scotland
     38. San Lorenzo G.C. Almancil, Algarve, Portugal
     39. Macrihanish G.C. Campbeltown, Scotland
     40. Tokyo G.C. Saitama, Japan
     41. Woodhall Spa G.C. (Hotchkin) Woodhall Spa, England
     42. Ganton G.C. Ganton, England
     43. Les Bordes Beaugency, France
     44. Kasumigaseki C.C. (East) Saitama, Japan
     45. Mid Ocean Club Tucker’s Town, Bermuda
     46. Redtail G. Cse. Port Stanley, Canada
     47. Cape Kidnappers G.C. Hawke’s Bay, New Zealand
     48. Domaine Imperial G.C. Gland, Switzerland
     49. Barnbougle Dunes G. Links Bridport, Tasmania, Australia
     50. Taman Dayu G.C. Pasuruan, Indonesia
     51. Spring City G. & Lake Resort (Lake) Kunming, China
     52. Spring City G. & Lake Resort (Mountain) Kunming, China
     53. Playa Dorada G. Cse. Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic
     54. Wairakei International G. Cse. Taupo, New Zealand
     55. Santa Elena G.C. (RTJ2) Cabuyao, Laguna, Philippines
     56. Capilano G.C. West Vancouver, Canada
     57. Russley G.C. Christchurch, New Zealand
     58. Puerto Azul G.C. Ternate, Cavite, Philippines
     59. The Links at Fancourt George, South Africa
     60. Paraparaumu Beach G.C. Paraparaumu Beach, New Zealand
     61. The European Club Brittas Bay, Ireland
     62. Durban C.C. Durban, South Africa
     63. Cabo del Sol G.C. (Ocean) Los Cabos, Mexico
     64. G.C. de Barbaroux Brignoles, France
     65. Western Gailes G.C. Irvine, Scotland
     66. Metropolitan G.C. Melbourne, Australia
     67. Royal St. David’s G.C. Harlech, Wales
     68. The Lakes G.C. Sydney, Australia
     69. Saujana G. & C.C. (Bunga Raya) Selangor, Malaysia
     70. The Mines Resort & G.C. Selangor, Malaysia
     71. Royal Montreal G.C. (Blue) Ile Bizard, Canada
     72. Pinx G.C. Jeju Island, South Korea
     73. Royal Liverpool G.C. Hoylake, England
     74. Greywolf G.C. Panorama, Canada
     75. Valderrama G.C. Sotogrande, Spain
     76. The Gulf Harbour C.C. Whangaparaoa, New Zealand
     77. Banff Springs G.C. (Stanley Thompson) Banff, Canada
     78. Angus Glen G.C. (South) Markham, Canada
     79. Lynx at Kingswood Park Fredericton, Canada
     80. Aberdovey G.C. Aberdovey, Wales
     81. Fox Harb’r G. Resort & Spa, Wallace, Canada
     82. Buenos Aires G.C. Bella Vista, Buenos Aires, Argentina
     83. Shenzhen G.C. Shenzhen, China
     84. Vilamoura G.C. (Old) Vilamoura, Portugal
     85. Luisita G.C. Tarlac, Philippines
     86. North Berwick G.C. North Berwick, Scotland
     87. Kawana Hotel G.C. (Fiji) Shizuoka, Japan
     88. Yalong Bay G.C. Hainan Island, China
     89. Emirates G.C. (Majlis) Dubai, United Arab Emirates
     90. Rye G.C. Rye, England
     91. Sotogrande G.C. Sotogrande, Spain
     92. Waterville G. Links Waterville, Ireland
     93. Kauri Cliffs G.C. & Lodge Northland, New Zealand
     94. Olivos G.C. Buenos Aires, Argentina
     95. Wentworth G.C. (West) Virginia Water, England
     96. Mission Hills G.C. (World Cup) Shenzhen, China
     97. Jockey Club (Colorada) San Isidro, Buenos Aires, Argentina
     98. St. Andrews (New) St. Andrews, Scotland
     99. Golf de Fontainebleau Fontainebleau, France
     100. Arabella Estate & G.C. Kleinmond, South Africa

I like some of the  iconoclastic things about this list - like Machrihanish ahead of Woodhall Spa - but isn't the single biggest shock Aberdovey at 80? Is it that good? (Never been there, but if it really is better than North Berwick, Waterville, Rye, Fontainebleau etc I'll be sure to make the effort)

[Adam_Jessie]

It seems to me that the fact that Shinnecock Moving up 3 spots in the ten would be a significant acheivement? There  does not usually seem to be that much movement at the top. Maybe, I am bias. I would like to hear your thoughts. Nobody mentioned the fact that NGLA moved up 10 spots, either.

Adam Jessie

[Tom_Doak]

I missed the international list, too.  Seems like GOLF DIGEST is looking to step on GOLF Magazine's toes.  However, is polling the editors of their regional publications the best way to do it, or are they just finding who's the biggest homer?

Apparently they give their Canadian affiliate a lot of weight.  But does anyone from Canada really think that National G & CC [or St. George's or Hamilton] are really better than Kingston Heath, Royal St. George's, or Casa de Campo?  Sorry, not me.

At least I got more courses in this list than in the U.S. list!

[Gary_Smith]

It seems to me that the fact that Shinnecock Moving up 3 spots in the ten would be a significant acheivement? There  does not usually seem to be that much movement at the top. Maybe, I am bias. I would like to hear your thoughts. Nobody mentioned the fact that NGLA moved up 10 spots, either.

Adam Jessie

I think Shinnecock jumped up because tradition points were thrown out. I know it is pretty amazing for such a old, established course, but Shinnecock was always short-changed on tradition points versus the Cypress Points and PB in previous GD rankings. Shinnecock was always a little ahead of those courses in things like shot values, scoring resistance, etc.

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