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Steve_Roths

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Steve_Roths

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2005, 02:49:13 PM »
Cypress to 4th and Sand Hills to 12th.  

danielfaleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2005, 02:54:51 PM »
Man, look at all those trees at Pine Valley. :-\
« Last Edit: April 04, 2005, 02:55:06 PM by danielfaleman »

wsmorrison

Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2005, 03:00:25 PM »
PVGC fairways are much wider than you might think.  It is not nearly so constricted as that photo makes it look.

Steve_Roths

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2005, 03:03:28 PM »
It gets better:


Is Tom Fazio good for the game?

Golf's leading designer is beloved by many, yet his courses have lifted expectations—and costs—to troubling levels.
By Ron Whitten

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2005, 03:04:52 PM »
isn't Jack often singled out as well for high costs esp maintenance??
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2005, 03:05:00 PM »
I saw Whistling Straits ahead of San Fransisco  golf Club and that is all of the horror I can stand for one day ;D

Now I really know why Golfweek seperate the two styles..it certainly is less provocative.

I am sorry I need to go and throw up..I still cant mentally understand my opening horror..it is giving me vertigo

Daryn_Soldan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2005, 03:06:03 PM »
Upon review, it would appear those warm central Kansas winds have blown #24 Prairie Dunes right up to suburban Chicago.  Stretched it out a bit too.  ;)

Steve_Roths

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2005, 03:10:02 PM »
It also appears that Butler is now located in Fort Worth?  Does anyone care anymore about accuracy?

Alex_Wyatt

Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2005, 03:11:06 PM »
Friar's Head??? Number 3 on the Golfweek Modern list and not listed by Golf Digest.  How is that divergence possible?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2005, 03:23:14 PM by Alex_Wyatt »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2005, 03:11:07 PM »
Those are still nice low-level aerial shots....

Here are individual links within the article:

Top 100 list overall:  

http://golfdigest.com/pdf/gd200505100greatestcourses.pdf


Top private:

The link provided does not actually lead to a Top 100 private list.  It seems there are several errors in the article so far.


Top 100 Public:  

http://golfdigest.com/pdf/gd200505100greatestpublic.pdf


Breaking down the numbers (individual categories):  

http://golfdigest.com/pdf/gd200505greatestcourses.pdf


New courses to the list and the courses that dropped off (scroll down):

link
« Last Edit: April 04, 2005, 03:11:34 PM by Scott_Burroughs »

Matt_Ward

Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2005, 03:13:52 PM »
Kudos to Digest in dropping the bonus "tradition" category. Sometimes the waters of change can even penetrate the concrete heads of those who denied the obvious that such an inclusion was never really related to the core elements that are being evaluated -- the actual design of the courses in question.

Losing Bellerive, Point O'Woods & Salem is no big deal and a good move on the part of the raters IMHO. Dropping Desert Forest was a major omission. All of the above courses had been on the listing since 1966. Losing Wannamoisett is also a major shortcoming.

Interesting that Friar's Head is not on the listing -- likely because the total number of raters playing there was too small a sampling of what's required.

Couple of quick questions ...

Even though Sand Hills is now #12 -- a major jump up indeed from two years ago -- I still believe it's a worthy addition to the top ten.

How does Shadow Creek merit a top 20 position ?

Baltusrol / Lower is still among the top 40 courses in the USA. Really ?

One other thing -- there is no way in hell that Rich Harvest Links belongs in the top 45. It is a well conditioned layout with some interesting holes and playing angles -- but within the top 50 in America ? I mean they even have holes with silly artifical turf and trees falling over one another on a number of holes.

I salute Digest for including a top 100 public but I can't fathom how Paa-Ko Ridge -- the superb Ken Dye layout in NM is rated among the top 30 but Black Mesa -- the equally superb Baxter Spann layout just outside of Santa Fe is not even listed. I mean what gives ??? I even see Twin Warriors being listed among the top 50 public courses.

Can someone explain how Edgewood Tahoe and Olde Stonewall (the Pittsburgh area layout) are BOTH rated among the top 60 public courses? Please help me stop laughing ... ;D

Let the discussion begin in earnest ...







Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2005, 03:14:14 PM »
I haven't been able to download the "second 50," but seeing Flint Hills National rated above Garden City Golf Club did raise the hair on the back of my neck.

Congrats to all here who have bemoaned Tradition Points and caused GOLF DIGEST to abandon them.  Now that they're gone, we see the other flaw in their system ... the REST of their definition of what a "great course" is.  With conditioning and difficulty each rated equivalent to design variety, and with many panelists interpreting "shot values" as a double dose of difficulty, it's not surprising that a lot of newer and longer courses are going to show up in the rankings.

Does that mean they really belong?  Or does that mean GOLF DIGEST still has some work to do on their definition of what a great course is?

The definition they are using is essentially one that GOLF DIGEST founder Bill Davis essayed in a piece in the mid-1970's, which wasn't really intended to set the criteria ... it was just something they latched onto when they decided they had to come up with criteria in 1985, after GOLF Magazine started ranking courses in order.  The late Mr. Davis was a nice man ... nice enough that he would have gagged on the thought that his definition would become THE definition of what a great course is, or isn't.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2005, 03:18:31 PM »
You guys missed the most obvious change - people finally recognized Oakmont is WAY better than Pebble!

5.    OAKMONT C.C.    7,279    71    70.41
   
6.    PEBBLE BEACH G. LINKS    6,840    72    70.40

 ;D



I hope to God that Olde Stonewall is not in the top 60 public tracks in the US, or we are in bigger trouble than I thought!
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2005, 03:18:51 PM »
Of the 18 newcomers to the list, 8 are Tom Fazio and one is Jim Fazio.

Pebble was #1 two lists ago, now it's #6.  The place must be falling apart!

All other threads will be forgotten today....


Wabbit season!  Duck season!  no....Huck Season!!!!   ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: April 04, 2005, 03:46:42 PM by Scott_Burroughs »

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2005, 03:20:04 PM »
Is the "conditioning" criterion allowed to be down to personal taste?   Or does ANGC automatically get a 10?
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

JohnV

Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2005, 03:26:09 PM »
Just to get the discussion going, here are the Modern (as defined by Golfweek) clubs in the list - Golfweek rankings in ()s:

1. Sand Hills (1)
2. Wade Hampton (12)
3. Muirfield Village (8)
4. Shadow Creek (9)
5. Victoria National (41)
6. Pacific Dunes (2)
7. Whistling Straits (Straits) (4)
8. Bandon Dunes (5)
9. The Honors Course (10)
10. Kinloch (11)
11. Butler National (87)
12. Kiawah - Ocean (17)
13. Flint Hills National (77)
14. Rich Harvest Links (NR)
15. Shoal Creek (52)
16. Castle Pines (28)
17. The Golf Club (7)
18. Sand Ridge (NR)
19. Spyglass Hill (16)
20. Quarry at La Quinta (NR)
21. Forest Highlands - Canyon (40)
22. Arcadia Bluffs (24)
23. Blackwolf Run - River (20)
24. The Prince (48)
25. Dallas National (18)
26. Ocean Forest (56)
27. Mayacama (37)
28. Double Eagle (29)
29. Valhalla (69)
30. Long Cove (35)
31. Hazeltine National (36)
32. Crooked Stick (65)
33. Estancia (39)
34. Laurel Valley (NR)
35. Sage Valley (NR)
36. Sanctuary (31)
37. Hawks Ridge (42)
38. The Preserve (51)
39. Trump International (NR)
40. Black Diamond Ranch - Quarry (32)
41. Grandfather (NR)
42. Atlantic (60)
43. Hudson National (NR)
44. Pete Dye (6)
45. Galloway National (38)
46. Old Waverly (NR)
47. GC at Briar's Creek (NR)
48. Harbour Town (25)
49. TPC at Sawgrass (14)
50. Sahalee (83)
51. Eugene (43)

Top courses on Golfweek's list not on GD's:
Friars Head (3 - too new)
Sutton Bay (13 - too new)
Cuscowilla (15)
Wolf Run (19)
Wild Horse (21)
Kinglsey (22 - too new?)
The Rim (23)
World Woods - Pine Barrens (26)
Paa-Ko Ridge (27)
Double Eagle (29)
Karsten Creek (30)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2005, 03:26:54 PM by John Vander Borght »

Pete Buczkowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2005, 03:26:25 PM »
I guess Donald Trump was correct after all... ;D

I'm surprised by the freefall of TPC Sawgrass -- must have been boosted by the tradition category.  (Edit:  it fall considerably on both GD and GW lists.)

That public list is a hoot!  Still Tobacco Road, Wild Horse & Rustic Canyon get no love.  Tiger's Eye 41  ??? :o ;D
« Last Edit: April 04, 2005, 03:28:59 PM by Pete Buczkowski »

Greg Holland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2005, 03:28:12 PM »
Is Pinehurst No. 2 really Ross's 3d best course???


Matt_Ward

Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2005, 03:28:30 PM »
A few other mindboggling results ...

Plainfield drops to 95th !!! That means Hudson National is ahead of this layout. Frankly, how does Hudson National even merit inclusion ? I guess the raters must have missed nearby Fenway in Scarsdale.

I also have to wonder how The Preserve gets into the top 100 but the raters must have amnesia in not elevating the likes of Glenwild in Park City -- Digest has had the layout number one in the Beehive State.

Kudos to the panel including Dallas National -- but still have to question what do people see with Sand Ridge in the greater Cleveland area ?

While I do like Victoria National I have to ask how the course is rated at #21 -- just one spot ahead of Pacific Dunes ?

The public results will also engender plenty of discussion. Olde Stonewall in PA is now among the top 60 public courses in America -- help me stop laughing. ;D

One other thing -- Kapalua's Plantation Course is only the 74th best public course in America. This is really sad that the so-called premier golf publication in America has such an outcome in its ratings.

I salute Digest for dropping the tradition category but the outcomes I have seen thus far have failed to convince me that the existing criteria AND its application make any real sense.

P.S. Shivas -- the situation with Medinah is a small cry compared to the other outcomes I have seen thus far.

JohnV

Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2005, 03:30:02 PM »
Just noticed that Riviera dropped from 26 to 47 this time around.  Perhaps Fazio's changes have had an effect.

THuckaby2

Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2005, 03:30:59 PM »
What a collosal, fantastic, and dare I say perfect list.

Tradition points?  Stupid concept.  I deny ever defending it.  Those words were from some other Tom Huckaby.

 ;D ;D

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2005, 03:33:35 PM »
The Ocean Course at Kiawah Island in 2003 -- 70th
The Ocean Course at Kiawah Island in 2005 w/out Tradition Scores -- 38th! ;D :o ;D :o ;D :o 8)



YIKES!  Harbour Town went from 65th to 97th.  Since our owner just bought it, I'm now taking a greater interest! :o
« Last Edit: April 04, 2005, 03:51:55 PM by Mike Vegis @ Kiawah »

Matt_Ward

Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2005, 03:33:56 PM »
Also have to mention how Redlands Mesa and Hawktree are both among the top 20 public courses in America. I've been to both and while each is indeed fun to play I don't see how either of them can be at thaaaaaaaaaat high a level.

It's possible they could make the top 100 -- but the top 20? Unfortunately, Jim Engh's newest layout -- Lakota Canyon Ranch in New Castle, CO -- doesn't get listed because it just opened. IMHO -- it would easily make such a listing -- and likely be in the top 40-50 public for sure.

This is getting better by the minute.

Pete Buczkowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Digest's Ranking's Are Out
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2005, 03:37:43 PM »
Another disappointing omission from the public list is Pine Needles.   ::) >:(

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