William Flynn Courses

[TEPaul]

"unless they pass the Tom Paul screening process."

Wayne:

Basically there is no Tom Paul screening process---as I'm an extremely laissez faire kinda guy. If I ran a club, though, the only think I'd ask for is personal commonsense and manners--period---end of rules. If some old fart entered a club dining room and started gratuitously using foul language at the top of his voice with members including women and children around and then when asked to stop he pontificated that he had some right to do something like that because he'd been a member of the club for thirty years, I'd simply tell him (very calmly, I might add) to remove himself from the club immediately and never return for any reason. I'd tell him if he didn't have everything he owned at the club outta there within five minutes the club would be more than happy to send it to him at his expense and if he wasn't willing to pay the postage it would all be thrown away by the end of that day!

[TEPaul]

David Esler's bunkering at Glen View was an interpretive look on Flynn bunkering on his part but if you ask me it was most interesting in play (the prospect of "getting Eslered") and in look (particularly if the club keeps those grass surrounds a bit shaggier) and friankly a real improvement on some original Flynn bunkering I've seen and definitely an improvement on the way some Flynn bunkering at some Flynn courses has evolved over time through maintenance practices.

[wsmorrison]

I never said the Tom Paul screening test was rigorous--or exclusive in a pejorative sense.  Members need only have common sense and courtesy. Unfortunately this rules out a sizable portion of a certain club I know with just the kind of old farts you characterized.

Tom,

Is what appeals to you most, the random nature of the lies you can get in the Esler style bunkering at GVGC?  Sort of a good luck-bad luck iffiness?

[Craig Disher]

Wayne,
I think you know how many clubs would be short of members if the TEP screening process was in force. Sadly, many of this type wind up at golf clubs which need the revenue. The decline of manners may also be irreversible as bad drives out the good.

Should "good luck-bad luck iffiness" be avoided in designing bunkers? I always thought they were hazards, not just a place to practice a different swing technique.

[T_MacWood]

Most of the vintage photos I have seen reveal flashed bunkers for Flynn... and I'm not sure what constitutes an artistic bunker, but IMO Flynn's bunkers are for the most part very stylish. I've seen Flynn parkland bunkers with a jagged edge. And I'm not sure the Sahara-like bunker he utilized on occasion in the mid to late 20's was meant only for seaside locations. Didn't he plant some of those bunkers at Cherry Hills and propose some at Cascades? Afterall PVGC, most likely the inspiration, was not located by the sea.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

I agree, Tom.  I don't think Mark Fines characterization of Flynn's bunker styles is very accurate.  True, he had a tendency to use simple bunker outlines, but it ignores a sizeable portion of his other styles.  Far from a singular style, he had a nice range of styles.  I'll try to do a bunker tribute to Flynn as you did with Ross sometime.  I think the notion of Flynn as a plain vanilla bunker builder would be disproved.  He did have a tendency to use simple forms but certainly not exclusively.  And he did have a tendency to flash up sand faces.

Flynn's use of Sahara style bunkering at the original 4th at Lancaster (1920 but NLE), 4th at Huntingdon Valley (1927), 1st at Philadelphia Country (1927), 12th Pine Valley (1921)--well, Flynn built it and there are a lot of similarities to other Flynn designs before and after) and other places sure weren't plain generic stuff at all-and many were in parkland courses at that.

Flynn's use of undulating sandy waste areas at Atlantic City CC, Denver CC, Norfolk CC, Indian Creek, Shinnecock Hills, Boca Raton South and North and other courses is pretty darn aesthetic as well with the mounds and sandy wastes sometimes discreet other times blending in naturally.

Some of the bases of Flynn's bunkers at Indian Creek had wave-like surfaces; not flat.

Flynn's bunkering of the 1st at Merion East is anything but plain  and this is true on many of the other holes at Merion East.

I cannot see any planned use of a Sahara style bunker at the Cascades, but he sure meant to put in undulating sandy wastes at the 14th and a small one on the left side of 16.  Perhaps he intended to revise 12 and 13 as well--all flat lands.

Craig,

I guess you're right, it is an unfortunate truth that memberships have a range of personalities.  Often times when clubs were in financial troubles the admission standards were relaxed, especially in the 1970s.  These blokes are now 30+ year members and they think they own the place and everyone should accept their faults by default.  You know I do not!

I think iffiness should be designed in and maintained (no rakes).  They are hazards and not wished-for lies in comparison to the surrounding fairway and greenside rough.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom and Wayne,
What is artistic and what is ordinary is somewhat subjective.  Same goes for what is flashed and what is not.  I didn't say Flynn didn't flash sand nor did I say he used flat bottom grass faced bunkers.  What I said was that he was usually very practical about it.  If he set bunkers near a green for example where the normal approach shot would come in from a point above, he tended not to flash as much sand (he didn't need to because the bunker would be clearly visible without doing so).  At the same time he didn't offen flash sand to a point where there was hardly a rolled over grass lip.  

Look at some of the "restoration" work that guys like Forse have done and you will see what I mean.  I assume they are doing "restoration"  

Wayne you always bring up the same few courses when you talk about Flynn's "artistic" bunkers AND I AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THESE.  But the bunkers at his other 40 or so courses don't necessarily have that same "artistic" and dramatic look.  Again, maybe its just our definition of artistic and dramatic that differ.  Wayne, another way to say it would be like this; wasn't it pretty obvious about the bunkers at Glen View and Pepper Pike.  Did they look like Flynn bunkers to you?  You know what I'm getting at.  Our opinions are not that far off.  

You've both read and studied Flynn enough to know that Flynn wasn't into the lacy edged bunkering like Bell would do on most of his designs.  Yes Flynn had varied styles (most every great architect did/does).  But they also had prefered tendencies and I believe that Flynn's tended to be more subdued and with less concern about asthetics compared to some other architects.  

While at dinner with Esler out at Glen View, he told he almost exactly the same about his research on Flynn.  He decided to use a style that was different then what Flynn first designed at Glen View and go with something more dramatic but not as prevalent on Flynn courses.  

Mark

By the way Tom, I have old photos of Cherry Hills bunkering and they might surprise you.  If those edges were there that you are talking about they didn't last long.  

[T_MacWood]

Mark
Did Flynn alter the bunkering when he redesigned Cherry Hills?

[TEPaul]

Mark:

In my opinion, it probably isn't all that worthwhile to get into that much of a detailed discussion of "Flynn bunkers" at some of his golf courses. If Flynn had a bunker "style" it was probably one of "evolution" or "site specific" on any course as almost any architect I've ever heard of. The reasons for that are many in my opinion. Bunkering to Flynn was basically suplementary to topography in most cases and Flynn also believed in bunker adustment as a rule (if a client would permit it). Flynn was also perhaps one of the greatest grass experts of his time and that seems to be the primary reason he beileved the "grassing aesthetic" of his bunker was something that could benefit from time and evolution---eg one of the reasons they looked fairly generic and bland in the beginning as did Merion East's and Shinnecock's. His expectation that the grassing would simply grow in and look a lot cooler over time. This is vastly different from some of the architects today like C&C, Doak and Hanse today who's bunkers look like they've been there for decades when they open the course. This seemed to be the case with MacKenzie etal and the American Construction Co at CPC and Pebble too.

I can't really recall what Flynn's bunkering at Glen View looked like at it's best but I feel this Esler bunkering although it may not look that much like Flynn's ever did on that particular course may be better than it ever was. Esler told me that night we were all there that he got his interpretation of those Glen View bunkers from studying Merion East's bunkering. I'm not so sure I understand that or see it but I still like what he did at Glen View alot whether it looks like Flynn's bunker there or not.

[T_MacWood]

"I can't really recall what Flynn's bunkering at Glen View looked like at it's best but I feel this Esler bunkering although it may not look that much like Flynn's ever did on that particular course may be better than it ever was."

TE
Is that your professional opinion as the preeminate Flynn expert? I've only seen one picture of Glen View post Flynn and the bunkering was interesting...bold capes, fairly unusual for Flynn from my limited knowledge.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom M,
Explain what you mean by alter his bunkering during re-design??
Mark

Tom,
I agree it is not really worth a debate, nor do I have the time.  I thought Esler said it was Brookline's bunkers he was trying to emulate but whatever.  The point was that they were not what Flynn originally did there.  I think we at least all agree on that  
Mark

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Did Flynn redesign whose bunkering when he redesigned Cherry Hills?

[T_MacWood]

From what I understand Flynn was hired to re-tool Cherry Hills prior to the 1938 US Open (and Philadelphia CC prior to the '39 Open)...an Open Doctor operating on himself...fairly unusual.

[TEPaul]

"From what I understand Flynn was hired to re-tool Cherry Hills prior to the 1938 US Open (and Philadelphia CC prior to the '39 Open)...an Open Doctor operating on himself...fairly unusual."

Correct but not that unusual. He continued retooling Lancaster and Cascades too for about a decade or two. All those clubs and Flynn only did those things to confuse purist/perservationist fanatics from Ohio 6 or 7 decades later.  

[wsmorrison]

I don't think Flynn had anything to do with Cherry Hills after it opened.  I think Mark and I discussed this, though my recall might be faulty.  What changes were done by Flynn for the 1938 Open at Cherry Hills?

Flynn did a major redesign of PCC prior to the 1939 Open.  We have the records of Flynn's proposed changes-both writings and drawnings.  They are quite specific and either followed or led the change of par from 71 to 69.  He didn't change the routing (the current 10th fairway was altered) but he did change a number of hole bunker schemes and greens, particularly the current 12th.  I'll try to post an original routing map of 1927 and the routing map in 1939 because you will clearly see an enhanced bunker look.

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
I don't have the details...I read about it in one of his obituaries, which is often a good source of info. I've seen a detailed breakdown of his changes at Philadelphia, but nothing on Cherry Hills. If you have his original plan for Cherry Hills, comparing it to the map of the course from the '38 Open might reveal the changes.

[wsmorrison]

I have made that comparison.  It is hard to see detail on the 1938 aerial in the Open program.  

The blueprints we have show only one hole with indicated changes; the 3rd hole.  The fairway in the 1938 shows the pencil  change (extended right and back towards tee).  The long bunker on the left in pencil is in the aerial as well.  The right fairway bunker in the aerial does not look like the the penciled change though it is in the same location.   But I don't have any idea if this is the way the course was built originally or if it represents changes made for the 1938 Open.

According to N.C. Morris, the Secretary of the Colorado Golf Association, "The course has not been changed for the 1938 Blue Ribbon event in the world of professional golfing.  Nor need it be.  Several holes have been lengthened by the building of new tees not so much to add to the difficulty, as to make for better shots for the longer hitters and still not punish shorter hitters."  According to Morris, the holes that had been lengthened are numbers 3 (+29), 5 (+8), 7 (+35) 8 (+5), 10 (+62), 11 (+87), 13 (+83), 14 (+33), 17 (+10) and 18 (+20).  The 15th was also lengthened from the original plans from 115 to 160.

Other than tee lengthening and the above changes on 3, it seems that bunkers were added on 7, 9, 15 and 16.  By the way, the green design on the blueprints for #4 is very interesting and unique.

I'm sure Mark Fine knows a lot more than this and I'm certain he will share it at some point...before the book is in print, I hope

Could you please copy me the Flynn obit and email me?  Thanks, Tom.  I've not yet found one...I'll have to scour the Phila papers' archives better.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

Seems your pessimism is a bit unfounded (as of now...  ) Either way, glad to see David Bell seemingly back to good health.

Not sure about Sunday yet, but I'll let you know.