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Patrick_Mucci

Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« on: January 12, 2003, 09:47:15 AM »
This is a two part question, which should come as no surprise.

When an architect designs and builds a golf course,
what architectural features are either unmaintainable, difficult to maintain or require unacceptable hits to the budget ?
In how many of those cases does the super take it upon himself to modify the feature ?

George Bahto referenced changes at CC Fairfied by the super, and changes to greens at Yale by the super.  
In each case a valueable architectural feature was lost forever.  
Why were these greens modified by the super ?  
What other changes to a golf course were done SOLELY by the super, and why ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Michael Stachowicz

Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2003, 10:19:57 AM »
These types of problems are exactly why a supt. should be on board early in the construction process.  Do architects look at a maintenance budget pro forma and design to accept riding greens mowers and mechanical bunkers rakes if the budget is small?  Will the architect avoid high and faces if the course can only afford an 8 man crew? It is important for the sake of the desing that the architect, owner, and supt. have the same vision so realistic goals can be set in line with the budget.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

guest

Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2003, 11:11:50 AM »
Michael is correct here. A building architect should not design a building that needed excessive yearly maintenance, say painting for example, if the building owner did not have a budget for that kind of maintenance. Having said that, times change and financial constraints change so that there has to be some flux allowed in the way a course has to be maintained to accommodate decreased maintenance budgets.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Bahto

Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2003, 09:14:22 PM »
Patrick: let me expand on the Yale story a bit.

I spend about 3 hours with him, a very nice man I might add, and he told me that at the time (the early 1950's) hardly anyone played the course and there was really no one to direct his activities very much. Apparently much of this was to fill in low areas and do a bit of deepening of some areas (wet lands) on the course during a major drought. The major areas were the pond between holes 3 and 4 and the pond fronting 17 tee. He dredged the 17th and used the material on the face of the "wall" on the other side of the pond - he also knocked off about 7' off the crest of the hill and pushed it down on the face of the wall also.

He said the wall was solid rock and he told of all the balls that were ricocheting all over the place.

With the soil then on the hill he was able to plant vegetation (ended up weeds).  

The point is there was no one to direct him and he thought he was doing the correct thing.

Golf was pretty stagnate during those years after WWII - pre RTJ - basically pretty much "dead in the water"

Unfortunately he got a bit carried away in other areas on the course that I won't go into right now.

At CC of Fairfield the super was a very learned fellow - I've seen all his drawings of what he was doing and it all made sense "at that time" - however he altered a few very neat features of the course - like the alternate fairway on 6 and killed the Alps green comples which is still out there in the reeds.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2003, 10:07:05 PM »
George Bahto,

At Yale, I thought that # 2 green was altered,

And that # 1 green was altered as well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2003, 07:04:30 AM »
Patrick

I'm interested in this issue too, particularly in terms of bunkers, and even more particularly in terms of greenside bunkers.

I look at pictures such as those on Jeff Bradley's website on another thread and wonder how they are going to evolve, and whether or not they can be "maintained" to look anything like they have been designed?  Yes, they do look more like what some bunkers used to look like on the auld sod, and what natural blow out bunkers tend to look like, but blowouts look the way they do partly because they haven't had men and women hacking away within them and splashing sand all over the place for many years.  When that happens in these newly"old" bunkers, what will the owners do?  Spend a lot of time and money trying to maintain the look they had on Day 1?  Let them evolve and probably "soften" over time?

One final question.  Do the bunker specialists like Jeff B actually build their creations with an evolution in mind.  The builders/designers of Kingsbarns seemed to do this.  Have others?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2003, 07:19:19 AM »
Rich,

That's a great question re: the evolution of these bunkers that are built with immediate "maturity."  What makes you think, though, the bunkers will soften in time?  If left to their own, wouldn't the edges remain jagged? Doesn't the softening come by the hand of those spading the edges into clean lines?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

ForkaB

Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2003, 07:47:16 AM »
Eric

I'm just guessing, but asuming that you can'tafford to/don't want to mow/maintain those edges.........the grasses in them will grow wild, balls will begin to get lodged there, people will hack out,taking some turf with them, others in the bunker will shower those edges with sand, wind will blow and rain will fall causing natural erosion, etc., etc.  My guess is that the edges of the bunkers will tend to smooth out as a result of these processes, but I could be very, very wrong.  At the very least, if they didn't "smooth out" members/owners might just not like the way they evolved and smooth them out themselves.  This is what I think happened to most of the previously gnarly old bunkers in Scotland that now have cleaner lines.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lou Duran

Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2003, 08:12:19 AM »
Pat,

In the "Scale" thread, Jeff Brauer addresses his design of larger traps which were built for machine maintenance, and the smaller ones which were to be hand-raked.  Many of the sharp angles which were left alone in the first 30 years of the 20th century do not work well with modern maintenance techniques.  Perhaps one of the reasons that we do not see the so called fine detailed work on courses today is because: a) we have the equipment to easily shape the land economically, and b) today's architects are building courses with the ongoing maintenance budgets in mind, and the fact that these seek to minimize more expensive hand work (in favor of using machines to save labor costs).  Since most golfers/members wouldn't know a Redan from a Biarritz and much prefer lush green to firm and fast conditions, is it any wonder that many of the features the aficionados hold dear are going by the wayside?

Rich,

It is amazing how fast the jagged edges on traps seem to disappear.  I played a course last week that reopened after extensive reconstruction just last year.  In just a few months, I noticed that the beautiful "natural" edges were losing their ragged, random form.  While maintenance, primarily edging with a weedeater, probably is largely resposible, I think that normal wind erosion is the bigger culprit.  I am thinking that the more angular jagged edges hold the moved sand more easily, and through time these build up and are grassed over.  The more curvilinear edges don't hold the sand as easily (gravity causes it to slide toward the bottom of the trap), and this process is accelarated by the tendency to edge in a sweeping, gently curving motion.  It seems to me that in order to maintain that jagged, "natural" look, that it would take considerable manual effort.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2003, 02:35:38 PM »
I'd also like to know how much more can it really cost to have your mower do special things like cut different areas at different hieghts. Don't you just use two different mowers?

This came up yesterday when I mentioned that the mounding the K. Dye used here probably should be shaved closer to fairway hieght while past the apex, have a longer grass to catch the really errant ball(to help pace). It seems that his design intent was to be able to use the mounds as kickplates but with the current mowing pattern the grass is too long in the summer to get any kick at all. Almost like they think the average Joe doesn't have the imagination to pull off the shot and remove it from the equation. :'(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2003, 03:22:47 PM »
Adam,

You can "just use two mowers", but at a price of 20k+ for a trim mower, and mid 30's for fairway mowers....theres even some rough mowers out there in the 50k+ category. For the big boy courses, that's a drop in the bucket I suppose, but for "average" golf courses, that's a whole bunch of dough. Now figure in the fact that another employee, or at the very least another trip around the course for one employee. It all adds up to more money needed to take care of things.

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

George Bahto

Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2003, 08:56:32 PM »
Patrick - Yale - yes, 2-green had "mounding on the surface removed for more accurate putting" he told me (what a statement! - that's almost as good as this one: "Raynor's course as built at Yale would be unplayable today"     geeeeeez)

On the 1st green Charlie Banks' description of the hole told of a punchbowl effect along the right side of the green - this was removed also - probably to make it easier to maintain and so the recovery from the right bunker would be easier.

I have a "laundry list" of much more - but that for another time  I guess (if we continue with this Geoff Childs will start getting crazed again and we've about got him - and myself - nearly calmed down .......   at least til spring
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2003, 10:53:10 AM »
George Bahto,

What has been the objection to restoring these features ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyChilds

Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2003, 11:06:09 AM »
Pat

In addition, I learned this year that the 6th green had a ridge running through it that is no longer there.  A fellow I played with has been a member since the early 1950's described it in great detail.  He also remembers the old 2nd green, punchbowl on #1, the ridge on #17 etc.  He too would like these features restored but he has not been approached by the committee or Roger Rulewich to pick his memory.  :'(

"What has been the objection to restoring these features ?" you ask?

Well, as far as I can tell the list includes
1- maintenance and drainage issues
2- quirky features may not sit too well with Yale getting NCAA events
3- Its obsolete architecture and if restored it would be way too difficult for the students, faculty and much of the membership.
4- because of #3, the pace of play (already WAY too slow) would deteriorate even more.

Welcome to my world  ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2003, 11:18:31 AM »
Geoff,

The drainage issue has to be the most bogus.

Do they not know who designed and constructed the golf course ??  

How can drainage be an issue on any green when these fellows were masters of surface drainage ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyChilds

Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2003, 12:19:14 PM »
Pat

The drainage issue involved the bunkers and especially their depth.  I agree that its a bogus issue but I can imagine that low lying areas such as bunkers on #'s 5, 6 and 16 need special care to allow for drainage.  There is no excuse for making the bunkers on #5 (short hole) about 5 feet shallower then the original. They also made the slopes around and into the bottom of the bunkers less steep to allow for mechanized mowing.  That too is bogus reasoning for altering the very basic architectural strategies used by MacDonald/Raynor/Banks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2003, 12:50:16 PM »
GC,

When many of the classic courses were built, they were not intended for 30,000 plus rounds per year, heavy irrigation, and high labor costs.  I haven't played Yale, but if the clientele is anything like Scarlet's, adapting the courses to today's realities is not a bogus issue.  As purists and aficionados we may not like it, but these changes are being made with the interests of the larger numbers of members and guests.  I've seen traps where you nearly have to extend a club to assist the player to get out.  We want inexpensive, fast, quality golf.  I am not sure that our desires can be achieved without sacrificing some of the features which we hold dear.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyChilds

Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2003, 01:38:08 PM »
Lou my good friend you are correct about today's realities and the interests of larger numbers of guests and members. It was stated to me in just that way in trying to justify the butchering of the front nine.  However, they did see to some degree that they went WAY overboard and at least tried to do better with the back nine (holes 10, 11 and 15).  Well, that work was sub par as well and this past year (2002) NO new work was done to the course in spite of the golf director asking for donations from the membership to help to finish the back nine's "complete restoration".  

Yale University does not neglect and alter the architecture of its treasured buildings or its art collection. It presumably does not water down its educational standards to accept students who can't keep up with the work. Some things are apparently too valuable for them to dilute.  They play lipservice to the golf course when the advertise it as a historical CB MacDonald gem but they allow it to deterioriate for decades.  Somehow I think the membership can climb the steps to get out of the bunkers and they can throw their ball out if they take too many strokes to get out. You say " am not sure that our desires can be achieved without sacrificing some of the features which we hold dear." but I disagree if a unique and historic landmark will be lost forever. In fact, I think everyone will like the fully restored course even more.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2003, 02:02:05 PM »
Geoff,

The notion that CBM and SR didn't design the bunkers to drain properly is absurd.  And, the notion that an increase in play could exacerbate that problem is even more absurd.

Whose contention is this ?  
And, are they willing to put it in writing ?

Lou Duran,

GCGC has deep penal bunkers, deep penal rough and historically fast greens, and has had these features for about a hundred years, yet, play is in a little over 3 hours.
But, this is a by-product of nothing more than the culture at GCGC, historical and ongoing.

YALE suffers from an intellectual and cultural disengagement, partially described by Geoff in previous posts.
Golf and the golf course are nothing more than a step-child.
To what else could you attribute their condition ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Bahto

Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2003, 03:36:00 PM »
Geoff - thanks for chiming in - i've been busy most of the today

In short, their defensive arguments are totally rediculous. If you cannot solve a drainage problem in the year 2003 we'eree all in trouble.

This is mostly about maintenance and compromise - AND THIS IS NOT WHAT WAS TOLD (TO ME) WHAT THE MAIN OBJECT WOULD BE!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Bahto

Re: Superintendent's dilemas & demises
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2003, 03:39:47 PM »
The original object was pure restoration!!!!!! then came all the compromises from "the learned ones"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »