The Genius of Modern Marketing Wisdom

[jim_lewis]

I have seen two Fazio courses at the following clubs:

Black Diamond
World Woods
Berkley Hall
Wild Dunes
Belfair
Barton Creek
Pinehurst (3)
Pelican Hill
Dancing Rabbit
Forest Creek

I'm not sure why he gets so many double jobs. I guess that is a exception to the general rule.  In any case, my recollection is that in almost all of the above properties the two courses have different looks and feels. That may be because he assigns different associates to each project with specific expectations that they produce different courses.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Lewis,

What role do you think loan officers played in those scenarios ?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Other double Fazio:

Mediterra in Naples,FL
Bonita Bay East, Bonita Springs, FL

[Mark Brown]

Tom and fellow members

I would venture to say that serious marketing had its beginnings when Arnold Palmer won the first Heritage Classic on a Pete Dye / Jack Nicklaus design in 1969.

If a developer builds an upscale golf community in an established upscale market 45 to 50% of the time they will choose Nicklaus or Fazio and they will likely lose money on the golf operation to earn the premiums on the sale of homesites and homes.

Resorts are much the same if they are in the same type of market. If they are in far away exotic places like the Caribbean they may consider the next tier composed of about
8 architects starting with Palmer and Norman. (As posted on the rankings thread)

Well-informed private clubs will also highly consider Doak, Smyers, Silva, Kidd, Hanse and the others we throw around on GCA.

Upscale daily fees will consider anyone that is known in their state or region and affordable daily fees will consider anyone with experience and a couple good courses they can show them.

Tom, Fazio is strong enough now to do multiple courses both in the same community and the same town, along with Nicklaus, in some cases.

For golf communities, marketing budgets usually range from $500,000 to well over $2 million per year.  

[Mark Brown]

Fazio gets multiple jobs to save a little money and a lot of time. It's all profit driven.

[Mark Brown]

Tom Doak,

All of this is because we are in the information age and thus there is much more competition now. Also developers can become celebrities now so they want Nicklaus, Dye, FAzio...

I'm sure you are receiving a lot more attention from certain type of developers. It's because of good work, competition and marketing.

[jim_lewis]

Patrick:

I really don't know how Fazio gets so may double gigs. Mark Brown seems to know a lot, certainly more than I do. I do know that Fazio puts much emphasis on satisfying the client, probably to a fault. Happy clients are more likely to invite him back. Investors and lenders probably see him as a smart choice. I don't hink many of his projects have failed, financially that is.

[tonyt]

have any of you archies seen examples of when the designer of the first course at a multi-course facility has perhaps monopolised the land throughout the site and/or the starting and finishing points around the clubhouse to knowingly assist their course in a way so that they know they would harm the ability of the designer of the second course to do as well with what is left?

[Tom_Doak]

Tony:

The first architect is nearly always going to take the best bit of land.  The only exception I know of is Bandon Dunes ... Mr. Keiser didn't own the land for Pacific Dunes when David Kidd started construction.

In many cases, the second course is only going to be built if the first one is successful, so to some degree it would be foolish to sacrifice some of the quality of the first course on behalf of #2.  But if there is a clear plan to build two, then the first architect will do his best to make that possible.

The only thing I've heard of along the lines of your question was that I know Greg Norman and Thomson/Wolveridge wrestled over who got what parts of the property at The National in Australia ... but the starting and finishing points were generous for both.

[T_MacWood]

Phil
Its a little misleading to say Bethapge was the only multicourse project built and renovated at the same time. There was an existing Emmet course and a planned/routed second course. Was the Emmet courses altered significantly?

I'm sure technically Ross could claim he built at least one and renovated the other Pinehurst courses in a given year. Of course he may have built and renovated courses over many years too.

As Paul pointed out other multicourse projects (3 courses or more) include Wentworth and Moor Park...done at the same time. And you have St. Andrews, Pinehurst, Olympia Fields, Salisbury and North Hills (Mo) as well. I believe the 45 holes at North Hills were designed and built at the same time.