Pine Valley: The Two Greatest Courses in the World?

[DMoriarty]

Whatever happened to the reverse course at Pine Valley?

[TEPaul]

"Whatever happened to the reverse course at Pine Valley?"

It's very simple. Crump did not want to do it!

Did you know that George Crump (from a newspaper article quoting him in 1917) said when he finished PV's present golf course his intention was to build a golf course like it right next to it strictly for women? The article from 1917 implies that's precisely why he later purchased the additional land the club now owns. The article mentions he'd even gone so far as to discuss with players such as Alexa Sterling what she thought some of the hole concepts of the PV ladies course should be!

Ladies at PVGC?! Oh my God! Well, relax, it was George's idea all by himself apparently as was the original idea for what's there now. Maybe he was getting sort of lonely out there in the woods all by himself. He did, by his own account, sort of fall in love with a few ducks but after he spent a small fortune physically rehabilitating the wing of one of them it up and flew away! This precipated Crump to remark to a fellow diner at Merion when the diner complained about the expense of ordering the duck on the menu;

"Don't talk to me about expensive duck!"  

 

[DMoriarty]

Tom I sometimes wonder if you just make things up so you can keep up your aura of authority on all things Pine Valley . . .

What makes you think that Crump did not want to do it?   When did he decide this?   Were there plans drawn up before he changed his mind?   Did he feel like Travis or others were elbowing in on his territory?   Please elaborate if you can . . .

[T_MacWood]

DM
That is a good question....its difficult to say if he abandoned the idea at some point or the plan died when he died.

[Brian_Gracely]

Even if Crump had wanted to do this, how would he possibly balance this with this desire for hole isolation via trees?  

[DMoriarty]

Even if Crump had wanted to do this, how would he possibly balance this with this desire for hole isolation via trees?  

Brian,

That is another question I had as well.   I am not at all familiar with the layout, but have often heard about the hole isolation.   It must have been some routing if it had isolation and worked well in reverse.  

[Brian_Gracely]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=1981

#1 finishes at the very top of the picture, on a bunkerless green that looks like a peninsula.  From there the routing is fairly simple to follow for #2-4, #5 is somewhat covered in shadows but crosses over the pond (middle of picture).  #7 runs along the edge, #8 comes back (two greens), #9 goes ENE, #10 is short, #11 runs parallel #9, #12 runs past #7 green, #13 follows, #14 goes over the pond (hard to see...bottom corner of picture), #15 is the long hole running back towards #12 tee, #16 is a dogleg right, #17 is a short hole along the edge of the picture and #18 follows directly after.  

I suppose someone could Photoshop the trees out of the picture and it might be easier to visualize, but then again if Crump abandoned the idea, then the routing probably didn't take the reverse routing into consideration.

[Steve_Roths]

Would Pine Valley ever consider building another course with its remaining land?  I don't know how much they have left after the driving range and the Short Course but I could imagine there is quite a bit of land.

I guess I am dreaming more than anything.  You could get Doak, Coore, Crenshaw, and the bunker boys and create something special.  I imagine if there was decent land left the members would entertain this idea given how busy the course has become over the years.

[PThomas]

Steve -- just curious, how busy does PV get, and why:  lots of members, members who play a lot, both of the afotementioned, etc???

[TEPaul]

"What makes you think that Crump did not want to do it?  When did he decide this?  Were there plans drawn up before he changed his mind?  Did he feel like Travis or others were elbowing in on his territory?  Please elaborate if you can . . . "

David:

What makes me think Crump didn't want to complete the reverse routing of PVGC?

Well, barring someone like Tom MacWood's constant refrain on here with me or perhaps just PVGC that if it isn't written somewhere it couldn't have been true, then how about this....

We do know from Travis himself and from quite a bit of fanfare in his magazine, "The American Golfer" that he felt that Crump had agreed to have him work on a reverse routing for Pine Valley. You can certainly go on-line and read what Travis said about it in the magazine complete with a few hole drawings of how the reverse routing would work (if there is a complete set of reverse routing hole drawings from Travis I'm not aware of it). I don't have Travis's partial PVGC's reverse routing and article at my fingertips but I think he began to write about it and began to create a few hole drawings for it in 1914, perhaps 1915. One wonders, in that case, why it went no farther from that point. I'm not sure, but it appears to me that he may never have finished that reverse routing and the reverse hole drawings. Did Crump just tell him at that point he didn't really think it would happen? I don't know, but it doesn't seem to have been pursued beyond that relatively early period in the creation of PVGC itself.

But then we certainly do know it never happened, don't we? We do know that George Crump worked on PVGC until Jan 24, 1918 at which point he shot himself.

So, even sans some actual written documentation that Crump did not want to construct a reverse routing at PVGC given the fact that it went no further after that initial fanfare in 1914 or 1915 from Travis, what does that sound like to you? Does it sound like Crump wanted to do it or didn't want to do it?  

I would seriously doubt that Crump felt that Travis or anyone else was elbowing in on his territory as it most certainly appears that Crump from the beginning of PVGC to the end of his life was more than willing to listen to the ideas of anyone at PVGC. We certainly do know that plenty have said they advised him in one way or another---certainly including Travis, Tillinghast, Macdonald, Colt, Evans, perhaps the Wilsons, Flynn, Thomas or some of his friends such as Carr, Baker or Smith and very likely his constant foreman Govan. And not a single time have I ever seen any instance that Crump refused to talk with or listen to anyone or to make a remark that he wasn't interested to hear their advice.

But the fact remains he clearly decided to do what HE WANTED to do there in the final analysis (that most certainly seems to be what everyone who knew Crump and PVGC said about him and I see no reason at all to doubt that), although he certainly may've been very silent about not wanting to do something someone may've recommended he do. The only single instance I've ever heard of Crump actually saying that he wasn't going to do something someone recommended to him was his semi-famous attrtibuted remark. "NO GOOD"  when Colt recommended he move the 2nd green about 30 yards to the left and probably put he 3rd tee in the middle of where the 2nd green now is.

[Paul_Turner]

In Travis's obituary for Crump he mentions the reverse course.

[DMoriarty]

But then we certainly do know it never happened, don't we?
. . .
So, even sans some actual written documentation that Crump did not want to construct a reverse routing at PVGC given the fact that it went no further after that initial fanfare in 1914 or 1915 from Travis, what does that sound like to you? Does it sound like Crump wanted to do it or didn't want to do it?  

TomP

It sounds like my post above was correct-- you are basically making this stuff up as you go.   Since you are merely speculating, why do you state it as if it is were fact?  

Yes we know the reverse course was not completed at Mr. Crump's untimely death.    But we also know that the course was not completed either.  By your logic are we to assume that Mr. Crump did not want to complete the course?  

Dont you think it would have been impertinent of Travis to mention the reverse course in Mr. Crump's obituary if Mr. Crump had decided that he did not want a reverse course?

Brian,  thanks for the link and notes.  

[SPDB]

The failure to formalize the reverse routing doesn't prevent the members from annually playing the course in reverse. Enterprising bunch.  

[TEPaul]

"TomP
It sounds like my post above was correct-- you are basically making this stuff up as you go.  Since you are merely speculating, why do you state it as if it is were fact?"

Ok, Moriarty, your above post is correct if that makes you feel better. I just made it all up. I guess Crump really wanted to do it but unfortunately he shot himself before he could get around to it. Isn't it odd though that to finish the course off the 1921 Advisory Committee collected the hole by hole remembrances of those two men who knew Crump's ideas for that course best and the two of them included a lot of things in their hole by hole "remembrances" of what Crump told them he wanted to do with the course in the future and there's nary a mention of a thing to do with a reversible course by Travis or anyone else? Perhaps Crump told Travis he would make the course reversible some day but what the PVGC record seems to show is that Crump never attempted to do one iota of anything like that. But you go right ahead anyway and believe he would have done that. A lot of people seem to believe a lot of different things about Crump and Pine Valley but the record of what happened down there is getting clearer everyday.  

[TEPaul]

"Even if Crump had wanted to do this, how would he possibly balance this with this desire for hole isolation via trees?"

Brian:

That's another good point. If you know the golf course it's pretty clear that with tree isolation and a number of other things like extremely tight green to tee positioning a reverse routing really wouldn't fit well down there. That Crump certainly understood that surely seems logical to me. Some of his holes sure would have been interesting with a reverse routing   #18, 17, 15, 14, 12, 11.....need I continue to go backwards?  

But other than things like that I see no reason at all that David Moriarty should not believe that Crump had every intention of executing Travis's reverse routing someday.

[DMoriarty]

TomP,  I have no ax to grind regarding Pine Valley, nor do I know how the reverse course concept came to an end, nor when it ended, nor who put an end to it, nor if it ever did come to an end (see SBPD's comment.)  I started this thread simply because I was curious to find out more about it.  

So I asked a question about Pine Valley.  You apparently think that questions about Pine Valley should never be asked, or at least that we all must accept your answers, no further questions allowed.   I disagree.  

I sure hope you dont think you are doing the membership any favors with your continued sarcasm and obnoxiousness regarding Pine Valley inquiries.  In my opinion you are embarrassing yourself, your friends, this site, and I would imagine the gentlemen of Pine Valley.

[TEPaul]

"So I asked a question about Pine Valley.  You apparently think that questions about Pine Valley should never be asked, or at least that we all must accept your answers, no further questions allowed.  I disagree.  

I sure hope you dont think you are doing the membership any favors with your continued sarcasm and obnoxiousness regarding Pine Valley inquiries.  In my opinion you are embarrassing yourself, your friends, this site, and I would imagine the gentlemen of Pine Valley."

David:

I really don't know where you come from sometimes or why. My feelings about Pine Valley at this point are pretty well known and they're just my opinions about a place I know and love very much. If you ask questions about PVGC on this website and I feel like responding however I have I will continue to do that. If you want answers about the golf course and its history you should do what I have---actively get to know it and try to find out for yourself. Otherwise, I find your reactions to the things I say about the place to be those of an insecure little pipsqueak.