William Flynn Courses

[Doug Braunsdorf]

"As well as Columbia and Westchester....although I don't consider either Flynn courses. "

Neither do I, Tom.  How can it be that you haven't been to Philadelphia yet?  If you don't have plans to do so this year, you're not half the student of architecture that I thought you were  

Wayne-

  Did Flynn/Toomey do the construction of Columbia for Travis?  We already know he redesigned holes #1 and 2.  

-DRB

[wsmorrison]

I don't think so, Doug.  He did build Westchester for Travis in 1920.  But Columbia was built by Dr. Walter Harban (a friend of Flynn).  Cornish and Whitten show two Columbia CC in Chevy Chase-one by Harban and one by Herbert Barker (former head pro at Garden City).   I'm guessing that Barker built the first in 1910 and Harban either built his or rebuilt Barker's sometime between 1910 and 1916.  Letters from Wilson to Piper/Oakley mention Columbia often always referencing Harban.  That's why I always assumed Flynn's work was on Harban's course.

C and W state that Harban's course at Columbia is NLE.  Maybe Flynn redesigned the 2 holes on the Barker course, I'm not sure at all anymore.

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne,

That's really interesting.

Similarly, I've been trying to get the real scoop about the courses at Potomac Park in DC.  

At present, there is an 18 hole course on the East side of the park and a nine holer on the west side that is clearly different architecturally.

C&W list Robert White as the 1920 architect of "East" Potomac Park, with Flynn making revisions sometime later, but also list Walter Travis and Walter Harban as architects of "West" Potomac Park, which is NLE.

I've speculated that the west side of the park is actually the Travis/Harban course, while the east side is the White/Flynn one.  

Anyone know the real scoop?

[Sam Sikes]

CCV James
CC Pepper Pike
Navy
Homestead-Cascades
Springdale
Cricket
Pine Valley?

[T_MacWood]

The present Columbia was originally laid out by Herbert Barker, then remodeled by Travis prior to the US Open (Barker had left the US to fight for Britain in WWI).

Barker is an under-appreciated architect. Mayfield near Cleveland is fabulous. Barker also collaborated with Colt on a course north of Chicago.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Wayne,

That's really interesting.

Similarly, I've been trying to get the real scoop about the courses at Potomac Park in DC.  

At present, there is an 18 hole course on the East side of the park and a nine holer on the west side that is clearly different architecturally.

C&W list Robert White as the 1920 architect of "East" Potomac Park, with Flynn making revisions sometime later, but also list Walter Travis and Walter Harban as architects of "West" Potomac Park, which is NLE.

I've speculated that the west side of the park is actually the Travis/Harban course, while the east side is the White/Flynn one.  

Anyone know the real scoop?

Mike, I looked at the two courses last summer, and there is an 18-holer, as well as two nines, the "Red" and "White".  The "white" nine, if I remember correctly, looked the most different.  When coming into the park from Ohio Av, the "White" is the one to your right; after you pull into the parking lot at EPP, the Blue is in the center, pretty much an out-and-back layout, and the Red is over to the left.  

Look at www.golfdc.com , although I doubt they know any more than us.  Any information I found was inconclusive.  

Rock Creek was also one Wayne, Craig, Tom and I observed last summer, and still has some characteristics of Flynn to it, if you know what to look for.  Many bunkers are filled in, but the shapes of the greens and the way the holes are routed over the land is unmistakeable.  

[mark chalfant]

My experience of Flynn solo designs include

Cascades
Phila CC
Shibe  Park

CC in Cleveland
Huntingdon  Valley
Fort  McHenry

Shinnecock Hills
Dumbarton Oaks
Lehigh
Rittenhouse Square

[mike_malone]

 Philmont
 Merion
  Pine Valley
  Rolling Green
  Morrison National
  Manufacturer's
  Philly Country
  Paul Field
  Lehigh
 Mc Call
  HVCC
  Concord
   Plymouth
   Cricket
    Bala
    GMGC
    Green Valley
     Whitemarsh

    Working on Lancaster and Shinnecock.

[Evan Fleisher]

...and bringing up the rear...

Elyria Country Club (Elyria, OH)
Lehigh Country Club (Allentown, PA)
Normandy Shores Golf Course (Miami Beach, FL)

[TEPaul]

Mayday;

I've never played William Flynn's GMGC---is that one any good?  

I heard that Paul Field is one of the world's true hidden gems but that Morrison National really sucks.  

[Cory Lewis]

Let's see, Flynn Courses that I can recall:

Philly CC
Manufacturers
Huntingdon
Lancaster
Lehigh
Cascades
Rolling Green

Hoping to play at least 3 more this year

[Lawrence Largent]

I've played only one Flynn, Indian Creek and boy was it just a treat!


Lawrence

[Dan Herrmann]

Just two - Rolling Green and Woodcrest.

Wayne - you know what I think about RG - If it were in almost any other region than Philly, it'd be the best course in the area.  And, amazingly, few know just how good it is. (Thanks again for the GCA outing in 2003!)

Woodcrest seemed to be in need of Mike's tree management program.  That said, I thought it had some of the niftiest sets of par 3's I've ever seen on a course.  I understand that Woodcrest 17 and 18 aren't Flynn originals?

[mike_malone]

TEPaul,

     Your boy,Wayno, has GMGC on his list at the start of the thread

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

I realize he does. But hey, if you want to call regrassing 17 of our greens in the early 1920s designing the course that's fine by me. Wayne and I have talked about that situation. It's a pretty funny story. I guess the pro/super/self appointed golf architect, ACCC's original designer John Reid had a situation over there where the putting green turf basically totally failed and he couldn't handle it so GMGC brought in agronomy experts Wilson and Flynn from Merion to do something about it and they did. Over that John Ried quit! Oh well, what're gonna do---other than get good greens?

Actually, the real story is Wilson and Flynn called Reid and told him they wanted to talk to him about GMGC's greens and they wanted to talk to him at a local diner over dinner on a Friday night and the next thing GMGC knew John Reid just cried uncle cut and left.  

[Will E]

David Esler redid the bunkers (interpretively) but it is a fine course and a great club.

Wayne,
Not sure why you included the but in describing Esler's work. Could you explain if you think his interpretation was wrong?

[Mark_Fine]

I've played or seen most of Flynn's designs, missing only about a dozen (depending on what courses you give Flynn credit for).  

As far as David Esler's work; he will tell you himself that he didn't like the look of Flynn's "ordinary" and "plain" style bunkers so he added some of his own lacy edges to them.  The members call them "Eslers".  They do not look like Flynn bunkers and that was on purpose.  That is obvious the minute you see the golf course.  

[Will E]

Mark,
Do you find the bunkering at Shinnecock to be "ordinary" and "plain"?
The Flynn bunkering at Indian Creek was (not is) incredible, very ragged and lacy.
I saw a picture of the dramatic 12th hole with bunkering that was far from ordinary.
I would agree with you that the bunkering today is very blah, and it puzzles me that the club isn't planing on returning to the Flynn style with the Forse restoration.
Do you know how Flynn's bunkering was GV opened?

[ian]

Wayne,

I have walked more than I have played, but a suprising 14.
I'm not sure how ones like Westchester count though.

It helped to meet with you and Tom twice, because I saw the work I liked the most on those trips. Huntingdon Valley is the must see to me, and yes even more than Shinnecock. It's not better, it's just very unique in its architecture.

[JBergan]

Just two - Rolling Green and Woodcrest.

Wayne - you know what I think about RG - If it were in almost any other region than Philly, it'd be the best course in the area.  And, amazingly, few know just how good it is. (Thanks again for the GCA outing in 2003!)

Woodcrest seemed to be in need of Mike's tree management program.  That said, I thought it had some of the niftiest sets of par 3's I've ever seen on a course.  I understand that Woodcrest 17 and 18 aren't Flynn originals?

I've only played Woodcrest once, and I agree that it would benefit from a tree removal program.  But...(going off on a tangent) I know a member or two and when I brought up the idea of taking out some trees, I got the same response, "That would make the course too easy."  I imagine that this misconception is pretty common.  

[Mark_Fine]

Shooter,
We were not talking about Shinnecock Hills, we were talking about the Flynn designed bunkers at Glen View.  Esler thought what Flynn originally designed there was too plain and ordinary looking so he decided to add his own touch.  He liked the look of some of Brookline's bunkers better so he used a combination of that and his own style.  Ask him and he will tell you tell you just that.  

Flynn did do some more dramatic bunkering on sites like Indian Creek and others, but not so on his parkland courses of which Glen View is one.  

We have no plans for example to put Indian Creek style bunkers out at Cherry Hills (even though I love that ragged look) because they weren't like that at Cherry Hills to begin with.  We could, but I sure wouldn't call it restoration.   Would you?  

I'm not suggesting a right or wrong.  I'm just stating the facts.  They can always change them again if they want to at Glen View.  
Mark

[Will E]

Mark,
I don't dobut what you say is fact.
Perhaps my question should be why Flynn had such a dramatically different bunkering style. Why do you think Flynn designed plain and ordinary bunkers on some of his courses? Would you classify Indian Creek as a parkland? I might. I'm not familar with Brookline though it sure looks like a parkland course as well.

[Mark_Fine]

Shooter,
Inidan Creek is not parkland    

First of all there are always exceptions, but my theory about Flynn is that he was a superintendent as well as an architect and was always concerned about maintenance of his golf courses.  He liked visibility of his bunkers, but he didn't flash sand very high on the faces unless he needed to in order to gain that visibility.  This is particularly true on his parkland courses.  Even at Shinnecock, he didn't design many high sand flashed bunkers.  For most of the Flynn courses I have seen and studied, I have never really viewed Flynn's bunker work as artistic (at least compared for example to a Thomas or a Mackenzie).  He didn't really do those flashy bunkers but they were always well placed but not what I'd call works of art.

I think that is what Esler found at Glen View and that's why he decided to do his own thing.  
Mark

[wsmorrison]

Mike Malone,

You'll notice that my list included designs, redesigns and constructions.  GMGC was a construction job where he regrassed 17 of 18 greens.  Our research shows that AJ Drexel Paul had the best stash of Scotch around so Flynn did the job for drinks and giggles.  He and ol' AJ got so drunk, they forgot to do the 18th green.  True story!

By the way, Paul Field is a dog track (Tom's family did like Greyhound racing you know) with Coney Island Whitefish (you know what they are, right?) found in almost every bunker.  He wanted to go bunkerless, but the local youth wouldn't have it. As for Morrison National, it has a policy of no Rolling Green members allowed--unless they pass the Tom Paul screening process.  None have as yet, except me of course.

Shooter,

I think the membership is happy with the bunkering for the most part at Glen View Club.  I'm not sure they like getting Eslered (stuck in the little nooks and crannies of the bunker surrounds).  I was a bit surprised at the look.  I think Flynn's generic looking parkland bunkering would have been a better finish.  In the end Esler got approvals for the work he did although they are his own conceptual version of Brookline.  I don't recall Esler saying that he thought the bunkers were too plain and ordinary looking --but he did his own interpretation of a Flynn style that didn't exist there, that's for sure.  What do you think of the bunkers?

Flynn, I believe, designed rather plain bunkers on parkland courses because they weren't natural so why pretend they are.   I also agree with Mark that as a former superintendent and one that cared about maintenance costs, the plainer margins would be easier/cheaper to maintain.  For clubs like Merion and The Country Club, cost would not be such a factor.

I do disagree with Mark Fine and think of Flynn's bunker style as more varied, depending upon location.  On sandy soil on or near the sea, Flynn's bunker style would get dramatic--especially on tame topography.  Here Shinnecock Hills, Atlantic City Country Club, Boca Raton North and South, Kittansett and Indian Creek were excellent examples of bunker  artistry and  craft far more complex than his parkland work.  Mark, compare these bunkers as conceived and built by Flynn with Mackenzie and Thomas and I would think they would be favorably viewed.  These bunkers were constructed in a way so that they would evolve in a specific manner if maintained properly.  Maintenance practices changed at Shinnecock and Indian Creek for example and the interesting character of the bunker style was lost.

Ian,

I'm sure glad we had the chance to walk some Flynn's together, especially our morning at Huntingdon Valley.  I know you'll try to get back down here; there's lots more to see.

I think the very frilly nature of the Merion bunkers was something that Valentine or maybe Flynn and Valentine developed after a number of years, certainly after the 1934 Open.  I'll try to find out who/what/when they started being maintained that way.  Time to call Richie V.

[Craig Disher]

The evolution of East Potomac Park is a hard nut. Unless someone has documents (many inquiries to the Nat'l Park Svc have led nowhere) that show who built what when, I don't think we'll ever know for certain.

At one point there were 36 holes at EPP. My guess is that Flynn had a role in 18 of them, probably the ones on the western end of the peninsula. All 36 were intact in 1940 but by 1948, the western 18 were being reduced to 9 - some Park Svc offices were being built on some of the land and since the 18 were sequeezed onto a tiny piece of land, there must have been safety problems.

Here's a recent picture of the 6th hole on the current western nine. It was built no earlier than 1948 so Robt White is perhaps the best candidate. I'm not familiar with his other courses; perhaps someone could comment on whether this is representative of his work. The mounds and ridges appear larger in person - and were probably much larger when constructed. The mound behind the green is at least 10-12' high - very noticeable on such flat ground.



West Potomac Park probably refers to a 9-hole course that existed around the Lincoln Memorial until at least 1940. It had sand greens and not much else. It was a course for blacks since EPP was a segregated facility until after WWII. That area around the Lincoln and Roosevelt Memorials is officially "West Potomac Park."