William Flynn Courses

[wsmorrison]

Inspired by the thread on Donald Ross courses, I wanted to get an idea of how many William Flynn courses people have studied or played.  I was a bit surprised by the lack of Ross courses most have seen except for the usual suspects (Klein and Fay).  I thought my number would be paltry by most comparisons.  In any case, my preconceived notion about the number of Flynn courses most have seen might be wrong as well.  I would've thought that few would have seen more than 5, especially outside the Philadelphia contingent on site.

The 48 Flynns (designs, redesigns or constructions) that I've been to include:

Atlantic City CC
Bala GC
Brinton Lake Club (now Concord CC)
Burning Tree Club (construction)
Cascades
Columbia CC (2 holes redesigned)
Concord
The Creek Club
TCC-Pepper Pike
CC of Harrisburg
Doylestown CC
Eagles Mere CC Old
Eagles Mere CC New (what's left of the NLE)
Glen View Club
Gulph Mills GC
Huntingdon Valley CC
Indian Creek CC
The Kittansett Club
Lancaster CC
Lehigh CC
Manor CC (may it rest in peace, Craig)
Manufacturers CC
Marble Hall (now known as Green Valley)
McCall Field (Phila Electric)
Merion East
Merion West
Monroe CC (nine-holer)
Normandy Shores CC
North Hills CC
Old Course at the Homestead
Pepper Pike Club
Philadelphia Country Club
Philadelphia Cricket Club
Philmont North
Pine Valley GC
Plymouth CC (Norristown, PA)
Pocantico Hills GC
Rock Creek Park GC
Rolling Green GC
Seaview CC (Pines)
Shinnecock Hills GC
Springdale GC
Sunnybrook GC (now Flourtown CC)
US Naval Academy GC
Washington Golf and CC
Westchester CC (construction, maybe some redesign)
Whitemarsh Valley CC
Woodcrest CC

[PThomas]

man, I don'tthink I've played ANY Flynn courses

[wsmorrison]

There's one in your back yard, Paul; Glen View, you ought to see it.  David Esler redid the bunkers (interpretively) but it is a fine course and a great club.

Come to Philadelphia sometime, it is the land of Flynn.  There's about 19 or so.  History, museums, orchestra, great restaurants, cheesteaks and golf--Philadelphia has a lot to offer.

[ChasLawler]

Homestead - Cascades
Homestead - Old Course
Columbia CC
CC of VA - James River

Wayne - I thought I remembered reading that Flynn had something to do with Chevy Chase at one point?

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne;

Atlantic City CC
Bala GC
Boca Raton GC (almost nothing left)
Concord
East Potomac Park
Gulph Mills
Huntingdon Valley
Lehigh
Manor (revisions)
Manufacturers
Merion (East)
North Hills
Philadelphia CC
Philmont
Pine Valley
Rolling Green
Seaview (Pines)
Shinnecock Hills
Whitemarsh Valley

Hoping to get to Lancaster and a few others this year.

[Scott_Burroughs]

For some people it certainly helps to be writing a Flynn book.  

And the Philly guys have an advantage, as well.


My list is short enough, I can remember them in order:

Pine Valley (walked 16 holes during Crump Cup)
Woodcrest
Huntingdon Valley
Lehigh
Rolling Green
Manor

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

Huntingdon Valley
Philmont (North)
Rolling Green
Seaview (Bay) You counting that?
Whitemarsh Valley
Doylestown CC
Philly Cricket
North Hills

If that's Springdale in Princeton, then that one too.

[Jason Mandel]

Wayne 15 for me

Philly Country
Philly Cricket
Whitemarsh Valley
Sunnybrook
North Hill
Shinnecock
Rolling Green
Lancaster (My current favorite flynn)
Philmont
Manny's
Huntingdon Valley
Plymouth
Green Valley
US Naval Academy (very underated, some amazing greens)
Merion East

Jason

[wsmorrison]

Cabell,

Chevy Chase?  Not that I've heard.  Flynn did a lot of work in the area, but nothing I've found leads to Chevy Chase.  If you know anyone there that might help to determine if Flynn did anything, I'd appreciate it.

Mike C,

I don't think there's anything at all left of Flynn at Boca Raton.  I've been to both courses there and there's hardly any land that is common.  Craig Disher looked at the aerials (old and modern) and was convinced there's nothing there of Flynn.

Kyle,

That's the one.  The Princeton University course is a Flynn redesign.  The routing was pretty much unchanged and Flynn redesigned all the holes.  The fairway bunkering was redone and all looks the same--not Flynn-like at all.  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Let's see...


 Cricket
Whitemarsh Valley
Sunnybrook
Rolling Green
Philmont North
Manunfacturers
Huntingdon Valley
Green Valley
Merion East
Atlantic City
Doylestown
Seaview Pines

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Wayne

What did Flynn do at Cricket?

Steve

[Mike_Trenham]

Philadelphia Cricket - This is news to me what was Flynn's involvement?  I had always thought it was all Tillinghast.

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne,

Yeah, I've examined that too (Boca) and it seems only perhaps a hole corridor or two is the same.  

I was stretching.  

[JSlonis]

Wayne,

What have you learned about, or what is your view of Woodcrest CC.  I'm very familiar with the course, having worked there for 2 years during my Asst. Pro days about 11 years ago.  I also know Fred R. a member, is a contibutor to GCA sometimes.

I always thought Woodcrest was alot different from many of Flynn's other local designs.  Alot of Flynn's Philly area courses have a "big" feel to them.  HVCC, Lancaster, Philly CC, Rolling Green to name a few.  Woodcrest is very unlike those courses, in that it has smaller greens, narrower playing corridors, and a tight feel to it.  I haven't been over there in a while, and I'm not sure it has been done, but I do know that the course could have used some much needed tree clearing.

If I remember correctly, weren't some of Flynn's original holes at Woodcrest lost due to road construction many years ago?  

As for my Flynn list:
Atlantic City CC
Bala GC
Columbia CC
Doylestown CC
Gulph Mills GC
Huntingdon Valley CC
Indian Creek CC
Lancaster CC
Lehigh CC
Manufacturers CC
Marble Hall (now known as Green Valley)
Merion East
North Hills CC
Philadelphia Country Club
Philadelphia Cricket Club
Philmont North
Pine Valley GC
Rolling Green GC
Seaview CC (Pines)
Springdale GC
Sunnybrook GC (now Flourtown CC)
Westchester CC (construction, maybe some redesign)
Whitemarsh Valley CC
Woodcrest CC

[ward peyronnin]

Wayne

You may decline to do so but are you willing to rank your coterie according to most fun to play?

Ward Peyronnin

[RE Blanks]

Huntington Valley
Philadelphia Country Club

Pine Valley
Gulph Mills

HV and PCC are two of my favorite all time.  I would love to see more Flynn but not too many in the southeast.  Hoping to get back to Philly and see RG and Man soon.  

[wsmorrison]

OK, if I tell you guys about Phila Cricket you'll still buy the book, right?

In 1928 Flynn did an extensive redesign only 4 years after the course opened.  Flynn added bunkers around the course.    He changed the then 4th hole (current 7th) where he took out the chocolate drops-maybe the alpinization that Tillie favored and extended the right bunker short of the green into the fairway.  On the 5th (current 8th) Flynn shortened the hole and got rid of the mandatory 180 yard carry that would shoot over the green.  This caused a lot of back-ups so he shortened the hole.  It has sinjce been reversed back to the old fashion.  Flynn's 6th (current 9th) added another the tee to the left and added bunkers left and right on the fairway making for a bold drive from the left that carried a series of bunkers and played like a dogleg.  On the right tee the shot was straight into a 50 yard wide fairway.   On his 7th hole (current 11th) Flynn redesigned the entire hole as a double dogleg redoing the bunkers and the green. On his 9th (current 6th) Flynn new tees were built to the right of the old ones and a series of bunkers were placed down the right side of the fairway (the pits are still there).  All bunkers were remodeled on this hole and being so short, he required more accuracy.  Flynn built up the current short 10th tee 2 feet so the green would not be concealed by the front bunker.  Flynn hollowed out the front of the green.  On the 12th, Flynn moved the tee to the right requiring a wonderful carry over the quarry.  He added bunkers along the left side.  The bunkers are still there but the tee is not--too bad, it would be awesome!  He also redid the green.  Flynn added a large bunker on the right side of the 13th fairway forcing play to the left or requiring a strong carry to clear.  Flynn redesigned the green.  Flynn added two fairway bunkers that pinched the 150 yard area (not his normal practice) and remodeled the green on the 14th.  Lastly, Flynn moved the tee on 17 to the left.

[mark chalfant]

Wayne, Ive experienced about  16-17 of his fine designs.
i will try to list later this weekend. I feel that the elegant
routing at Cleveland's Country Club should be seen by more.

[wsmorrison]

Mike C,

Yep, that's what we came up with at Boca.  Too bad those courses were lost.  But there may be an opportunity to ressurect them (it is Easter time after all).  

Jamie,

Woodcrest was orginally built as a public course.  You're right on-that course seems different than other Flynns.  Especially those really small greens.  They look like they were built that way and not lost green space.  Do you think he might have been trying to create a challenging public course?  There have been lots of bunker changes over the years, far more modern in style and they really stand out next to the clamshell sort favored by Flynn on the site.  The proliferation of trees was a fad that should be reversed here.  Even without the trees, it wouldn't have the feel of Philly Country, Huntingdon Valley or even Rolling Green.  I'm not so sure the holes were changed, but we don't have any drawings to be sure.  I've only been there once with Fred Rutenberg.

RE Blanks,

Get back up here!  Lots of Flynn to see.  There is a 9-hole Flynn in Plymouth, NC built for a Pine Valley member for his factory employees called Plymouth Country Club.  As far as I know, only Adam Messix has been there from the treehouse members.

Ward,

That would be very hard to do and would not be scientific in the least.  I'd factor in stuff like engineering made to look natural, NLEs and stuff not too many would care about.  I've really never tried to do it but without thinking about it, I'd say something like this for original designs I've been to:

Shinnecock Hills (my choice for best course in America)
Merion East
Boca Raton South
The Country Club, Brookline (best parkland bunkers I've ever seen--they're maintained perfectly to this day)
Rolling Green (needs a bit of tweeking but they don't listen to me)
Huntingdon Valley
The Kittansett Club
The Cascades
Indian Creek (completely man-made, a surviving Lido category course)
Philadelphia Country Club
The Country Club, Pepper Pike (this could go higher, Mark Chalfont; you're absolutely right it should be seen by more of us)
Lancaster
Lehigh
Denver CC (if it was built according to Flynn plans)
Manufacturers
Opa Locka (great use of water--imagine that from Flynn, sadly NLE)
Merion West
Atlantic City CC (as it was by Flynn)
Yorktown (as designed and built, NLE)

That's 20 or so.  I'm probably leaving some obvious ones out, all typing no thinking you know.  I don't know Cherry Hills (yet) but the original designs look interesting, I'll see it after work is completed.  Mill Road Farm drawings look simply great!  But I don't have topos and am not sure how it looked on the ground.

[T_MacWood]

Country Club
Pepper Pike
Elyria
Cascades
Cherry Hills
Shinnecock

As well as Columbia and Westchester....although I don't consider either Flynn courses.

[wsmorrison]

"As well as Columbia and Westchester....although I don't consider either Flynn courses. "

Neither do I, Tom.  How can it be that you haven't been to Philadelphia yet?  If you don't have plans to do so this year, you're not half the student of architecture that I thought you were  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Wayne

WHY did Flynn do the redesign at Cricket? Were the members unhappy with Tillinghast's work or did Flynn approach the club? Why wasn't Tillinghast brought back?

Steve

[RE Blanks]

wayne how much did Flynn do at Gulph Mills?  I think they claim it as a Donald Ross.  I know that Maxwell did some greens.  

[wsmorrison]

Good questions all, Steve.  I have no idea and neither does anyone at the club.  It sure was only a couple of years after the course opened.  I wonder if Phil Young, Wolffe or Trebus might know what he was up to in 1936-1937.  I would guess that Tillinghast was OK with the changes.

Again, I think the long par 3 towards the RR tracks was a big bottleneck to play and for a time it helped to alleviate congestion.  

The changes Flynn made were in my mind improvements, especially the left tee on 9 with other design changes and the right tee on 12 with other hole changes.  Aesthetically getting rid of the chocolate drops (awful to look at--maybe Tillie didn't want to get rid of them) was a good thing.

Interestingly, Flynn-with Tillinghast's approval made changes to Sunnehanna in 1937 when Tillinghast was still alive.

[wsmorrison]

RE Blanks,

He generally improved agronomics and regrassed all but one green.  I don't think he did any architectural work.