Is Seminole that great?

[George Pazin]

One of the more interesting comments I've read about Seminole appears in one of the editions of The World Atlas of Golf. Unfrortunately it's not the edition I have at the office, so I can only paraphrase, but it said that in a small poll among top architects when asked which 3 courses are worthy of study, it was the only course mentioned on everyone's ballot.

You're in trouble, Wayne - Tom D says if you don't know how great Seminole is, you don't know what great golf is! Either that or you were treated poorly.

I'd love it if someone could elaborate on Brad's comment about the use of the major dune in the routing.

[Brian_Gracely]

George,

As you can see, there are two major dunes that cross the property, the one along the left side, and the one along the ocean.  

For reference, #1 starts near the clubhouse (lower right), and finishes between those ponds.  The front nine stays in the lower-left side of the picture.  #10 starts just to the right of it (same direction) and is next to the practice area, and the back nine is upper-right.  

I only walked a few holes, but my guess is that people's reaction to Seminole is probably alot like their reactions to Pinehurst.  It doesn't have the flashy land (although it is near the ocean), it doesn't have the huge, bold or gnarly looking bunkers of other courses, and it doesn't completely scare you standing on the tee boxes.  

But look at how well the course is routed in that compact area.  Knowing that the wind will howl off the ocean, the holes go in different directions, up and around the dunes, and offer ample give and take throughout the round.  

[Nick Pozaric]

I love the swimming pool next to the clubhouse.  We asked the member that we played with if anyone uses it and he laughed and said one guy a year swims in it then he gets kicked out, he said that with a smile. Great golf course, great and memorable routing, great use of the land.  Like was said earlier, not flashy but great design!

[George Pazin]

Thanks, Brian - that aerial helps a lot.

[ian]

Wayne and Brian,

I don't see how any of you say that #17 is weak. It is one of the finer short holes I have played. Very tough shot with a side wind off the ocean. That is one of the hardest holes to build well, and this is one of the best I've seen.

The strength of the course for me is two through seven, the holes are spectacular with the 4th being one of the best par fours I have seen.

I struggle a little with the high ranking too, but the detail work is excellent, especially the bunker placement. Similar to Riviera the constant change of left to right, and right to left is exceptional. It's great regardless.

I wonder if it is the relative openness of the property that bothers some.

[Brian_Gracely]

Ian,

I was commenting about #17 at Holston Hills, in response to a comment by Mike Hendren.  

#17 at Seminole looks outstanding, and considering its proximity to the ocean winds, I'm sure it makes for a difficult 3 or 4.

[Bill Gayne]

Just guessing from looking at the picture. I'd estimate about 110-115 acres? Is that about right? Does it feel overly tight or squeezed in when played? If not, why?

[BCrosby]

Bill -

Like most great courses, Seminole felt "big" to me. I think the feeling is due to the paucity of trees on the interior of the course. Holes are very exposed to the wind. A good thing.

Some of the par 5's may be less interesting than they used to be because of technology, but it is a wonderful course deserving of its ranking. IMHO.

Bob

[ian]

Brian,

my bad

[Nick Pozaric]

Just guessing from looking at the picture. I'd estimate about 110-115 acres? Is that about right? Does it feel overly tight or squeezed in when played? If not, why?

The front 9 doesnt feel crowded at all.  The only time it felt even close was the area in the top right of the map.  It does a good job of spacing with the elevation changes and trees and shrubbery.   I was happy to have my 2 putt par on 17 with a stiff breeze.  #8 is a pretty tough hole as well, 235 par 3 with a strong breeze in the face.  I got up and down for par while our host hit a little running ground hook that wound up about 8 feet from the hole.  Fun course with many different ways to play.

[Scratch_Nathan]

Yes.  It's great.  This is a post I put up after my maiden Seminole voyage in early February.  Wayne suggested I throw it in for the folks that may have missed it.

Title:  Seminole...refer to your Bible

Okay, so I'll admit it... while I hold his opinion (and design talent, of course) in very high regard, I wouldn't say I always agree with TD's reviews in The Confidential Guide. After playing Seminole for the first time last week, I revisited his review of the Donald Ross/Dick Wilson classic and was shocked!  It could not have matched my thoughts any more exactly.

There are those who say that Seminole is consistently overrated because of the "forbidden fruit" factor and due to the Hogan lore, its social and historical significance in the golf club pantheon and the impressive locker room.  

I must admit, it was the course that blew me away and I've been much more awed by the aura of the clubhouses and locker rooms at Merion, Winged Foot, Shinnecock and East Lake just to name a few.  No doubt the golf Gods do live in the locker room at Seminole, but it paled in comparison to the merits of what lay outside and a short right turn down the stairs.

As Doak's review refers to... the routing's use of the two prominent sandy ridges is simply brilliant.  This is one unbelievable 100 or so acres and it's neither claustrophobic or lacking for highly memorable and strategic holes.  Now having been there, I can see how it has been THE model that so many subsequent architects have used to best utilize high ground on courses that lack significant elevation change.

The green complexes far exceeded any expectations I had for the course.  Similar to Pine Tree which I played the day before, this is a course whose collection of greens offer a lot of variety and demand terrific second shots.  Tee shots at Seminole need not be perfect to stay in the game, but leave it on the wrong side of the fairway and your next pass at the ball better be spectacular if you want a reasonable birdie chance (along with the shifty winds, now obvious reasons why Hogan tuned up for Augusta there).  I was so impressed with the shapes, curves and slopes of the greens; each one perfectly suited for the landforms and the demands of the individual hole.  I don't know whether Ross or Wilson deserve credit for the complexes as they exist today, but boy would I like to shake their hands and thank them.

Standouts for me were the right-swinging par-5 3rd, the incredible ridge-running par-4 4th, the striking straight-away par-4 #7, the stretch from #s 13-15 and the 18th was amazing with it shelved green and ever-threatening 20 ft.? deep bunker to its right.  Of course #6 is well-known as Hogan's choice as the game's best par-4.  Unfortunately, I didn't see much of the center-line until I tapped in for a big number.  I did stop and examine the green, and look back toward the tee box to appreciate its unquestioned quality.

I may not have shared anything here that the GCA folks don't already know, but the bible takes good care in giving everyone the most appropriate commentary I can think of.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel Stewart,

Seminole doesn't open until 8:30 and you can set your watch by the door to the men's locker room.

Wayne Freeman,

I'm shocked that you found # 1 and # 10 similar, especially into a north wind.

I find the holes, and their play, drastically different, especially in varying winds.

The water is a major influence on play, when the wind is from any direction.

It may be that you were so engrossed in playing and fighting the wind on each hole that you didn't notice the differences in the two holes.

The neat thing about these holes is how differently the wind affects them and your play of them, especially with the wide variety of hole locations on each green.  Far left hole locations, into a north wind, create some of the most dangerous shots in golf, especially when the greens are fast.

What I'm also shocked by is your inability to imagine playing
# 17 and # 18 in winds other then the wind at your back, as you played it when you were there.

The 17th green, with it's rounded edges is about 1/3 of it's actual size, from a playability perspective, in anything but a north wind.

Likewise, # 18 plays dramaticallly different in other winds.

With wind directions other then from the north, # 17 and
# 18 are difficult finishing holes.

Imaging trying to hit the 17th green if the same wind was in your face, quartering or from the east of west.
It's almost impossible.

Perhaps this is an example of where multiple play would provide you with enhanced perspecitives.

[JESII]

Patrick is absolutely correct re: #'s 1 & 10. They may at the tee seem close to identicle because of their proximity to the clubhouse and direction of play, but that is the end.

As far as #17 goes, I can't imagine any wind conditions that would make that seem like a run-of-the-mill par 3, it is simply one if not the very best medium to short par 3's one could ever hope to find. There is a story of the final round of a club championship a number of years back in which both Buddy Marucci and Vinny Giles hit 2 irons into one of the fronting bunkers. I would think the hole had their attention that day.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I just heard on the Bay Hill tv broadcast that Gary Koch and his partner, Vinny Giles, won the Pro-Am with a better-ball score of 65.

[james soper]

i had heard seminole had a saltwater swimming pool to discourage swimmers. just to make sure, stuck my finger in the pool last year for a little taste and 'voila'- saltwater.

[TEPaul]

#1 and #10 at Seminole are similar? My God---what's that all about? The only thing similar about them is neither is very long!

[rgkeller]

I just heard on the Bay Hill tv broadcast that Gary Koch and his partner, Vinny Giles, won the Pro-Am with a better-ball score of 65.

Joe Oglivie and his partner had a net 64. Koch and Giles had a gross 65.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

I hope that I get to find out one day...

[James Bennett]

Is it a salt water chlorinated pool, or a sea water pool?

Salt water chlorination is an effective alternative to chlorine, using elctrical current to convert the sodium chloride (salt) added to the water into chlorination (disinfection) of the water.  The 'salty taste' should be quite mild,negligible really.  Sea water, now that would be something else.  Salt chlorinated pools are popular in Australia as they require less manual input than chlorinated pools.

[TEPaul]

"Saltwater swimming pools are very popular in Europe, especially France, of course.  Seriously."

redanman:

Saltwater swimming pools are popular in France? That figures. I think the swimming pool at Seminole was built by a Frenchman and that probably explains why no one goes in it. In all my years at Seminole I only saw a person in that pool one time.

[Jfaspen]

you guys seem as obsessed with the swimming pool at seminole as you do with the routing!

not really, but to me, this is now the most (in)famous swimming pool in the world and if i ever step on the grounds at seminole, no matter how hot it is, i am not getting in the pool.

[PThomas]

I wonder if even mentioning it would result in being permanently banned..

don't ya think there's gotta be at least 1 story of some drunken guest diving in/falling in?!?!!?

[TEPaul]

"You and I both know a gentleman with many children who once considered joining Seminole but joined a nearby 36 hole complex instead.  Were you aware of the relief of some members of Seminole at his decision?"

redanman:

Yes, he told me that story himself basically laughing the whole time. He was the president of GAP when I came on that board and he was sort of my original mentor.

He said he planned on spending the winters in Florida but not for a number of years. But being a good planner he got in touch with a friend at Seminole who proposed him. After a few years nothing seemed to be happening so he called his sponsor to ask him about it and the man said---"Oh my God, I forgot about it".

He then proceeded to hurry things through and he was basically in other than his interview in front of Seminole's Board. So his sponsor brought him in there in front of the Board and proceeded to say;

"This man will be a wonderful asset to the club, he's very responsible, a wonderful husband and father, matter of fact he has fifteen children and many of them are golfers and swimmers and very good at both."

He said it was totally hilarious to see the entire expression on all the members of the Board change when that last bit was mentioned, and so he decided to go over and apply at Jupiter Hills where he's happily been now for some years!  

It's not like Seminole doesn't like children or anything they've just never had much of an idea what to do with them at Seminole.

However, that's not necessarily been the way it always was. Past czar Van Gerbig had a sort of odd family life when he was a kid where his mother and father weren't too sure what to do with him so they used to just take him to Seminole every day and leave him there. Because of that asst pro Dave Marr basically became a surrogate brother/father to Barry.