Frontal Assaults

[BCrosby]

I was reading Tom Simpson last night. (BTW, he is a very good writer who is often over-looked.)

Simpson noted that Colt, Alison and Abercromby were responsible for overcoming many of the mistakes of the "Dark Ages". Simpson's "Dark Ages" was the period at the end of the 19th century when Old Tom Morris and others were active designing courses.

One of the sins of the OTM era that Simpson believed architects had learned not to repeat was the "frontal assault" of a large upslope.

I had never heard a remark like that before. It's clear that Simpson would not have approved of MacD's Alps Hole template, for example.

I can think of good uphill par 3's (SH 13th) and par 5's (ANGC 8th) that make frontal assaults. But I can't think of a great  par 4 that frontally assaults an upslope.

What par 4's am I overlooking? At least with repect to par 4's, is Simpson right?

Bob  

 

[TEPaul]

Bob:

Just drop Simpson. For at least the next ten years it's only Max Behr you need to be concentrating on reading. I don't care if you only have only a single five page article of his it'll take a minumum of ten years for the extraordinary extent of it to sink in. Have you seen any good Mrs Grundy bunkers lately?

[ForkaB]

Bob

Not to be too contrarian, but.......

Doesn't the Old Course largely consist of "frontal assaults?"  Particulary holes 2 to 6, but also many holes thereafter.

Also, "The" Redan (North  Berwick) is by definition a frontal assault hole.

Quite frankly, I cannot think of an OTM (or Willie Park, Jr.--even pre his "Arts and Crafts" phase....... ) hole that fits Simpson's criticism.

Can anybody else out there enlighten us?

[TEPaul]

Bob:

Actually there're a ton of good frontal assaults all over the place but I guess it all boils down to what you mean by upslope. It's no secret in golf and architecture that if one sticks a green site something like 50 feet above an approach area there just aren't that many golfers who can get the ball up in the air that high that long!

GMGC originally had two consecutive holes like that from Ross and they both had to be redesigned simply because most members just could not hit a ball that high that long.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Would #18 at Merion fit this frontal assault..borederline maybe
How about #2 at Pine Valley

I know that Tom will evaluate this and put me in my place if I am incorrect.

[TEPaul]

Michael:

I think sheer height including length of an approach shot has to be what Bob is talking about. A ball doesn't know or care whether it's side hill or straight on it's trying to fly over and up to---all it knows is it's got x number of feet into the air to get to and x number of yards of length it can do that.

If any of us can think of some hole where we generally feel we have to constantly help the ball into the air is probably one of the most excessive frontal assaults we can think of.

[JESII]

#18 Huntingdon Valley?

Still not quite sure exactly what is being sought.

[jeffwarne]

#18 Sleepy Hollow

[TEPaul]

Jim:

I was thinking of HVGC's 18th because that green is really up there although if Bob Crosby saw it maybe he wouldn't think it was a frontal assault with the way the land runs but the point is that green is way up there----and to me no matter what sort of cant of the ground the ball was flying over it has to get way up there and stay way up there til it gets right to the green. That's all frontal means to me.

[Ted Kramer]

15 Bethpage Black.

-Ted

[BCrosby]

Simpson is getting at uphill holes. He says - in essence - that Colt and those that came after him, ceased to design holes that "attacked" straight up a hill.

The implication was that the more enlightened architects that came after OTM used upslopes differently. They either avoided them, used the slope diagonally, routed around them or in other ways minimized the long hard slog up to a green.

The 18th at Merion is not an example. There you hit to a spot more less level with the tee (or at least short hitters these days do) to a green that is only slightly higher. (The 12th at Merion might count, however.)

I don't know Bethpage, but the 18th at Riviera strikes me as a great uphill par 4 (haven't played it either; does it continue uphill past the landing area?) . The 18th at Olympic is straight uphill.

But I can't think of many others. Simpson may have a point.

Bob

TEP - Promise, I'll lay off the Simpson and get back on the Behr. Just had to get this out of my system.  

[Bill_McBride]

I wish I had a photo, but #16 Black Mesa is definitely a "frontal assault" par 5.  It's very much straight up a hill, with a narrow landing area and a continuing climb up the steep hill.  Then the green site is even higher with a devilishly contoured green.

One of those holes that makes one grateful for the inventor of the golf cart!

Several of the holes at Painswick are definitely of the pre-1900 "frontal assault" design school.  Two short par 3's are straight up over the ramparts onto punchbowl greens.  #1 is a 227 yd par 4 again straight up hill.  If the fairway grass was closely trimmed, there's a good chance tee balls would roll back downhill toward the tee!  It really can't be reached, because beyond the rampart wall is a moat!  So the 227 yds is underestimated by maybe 30%.

[JESII]

#'s 9 and 10 at Shinnecock are different versions on this theme.

Understandably, the 10th might raise an eyebrow from Mr Crosby and perhaps even Mr Simpson, but it appears alot of the same effects are there.

[Neil Regan]

Shinnecock #10

  You can avoid the large upslope on your approach by staying on top. It used to be a long shot from the tee to the bottom, but these days it's commonly done. So, a frontal assault is a choice here.

[James Bennett]

Not sure quite what 'frontal assault' means.  If it means needing to hit a high, long shot to a green, does Augusta #18 and New South Wales #3 (both MacKenzie oles) fit the bill?

[BCrosby]

James -

Agreed. The 18th at ANGC clearly qualifies as a frontal assault on a hill. Its uphill from the tee to the green.

But there aren't many par 4's that are uphill all the way. There are even fewer good ones. Which, I think, was Simpson's point. It's very hard to design a good uphill (all the way) par 4. So most architects avoid them if possible.

Bob

[James Bennett]

Bob

the few that I have played are very difficult to get on the green.  The false fronts are normally very severe.  If I can get near the surrounds on the side with my ground game ( I don't have the power to hit long and high) I might get a par.

I assume that Augusta #9 might be a frontal assault par 4 as well.  If the tee-shot is downhill, then a severe uphill second, it is similar to NSW #3 (also a dog-leg left).  How do ordinary members at Augusta  (if there is such a thing) cope with such a hole?

[Dan Kelly]

What's Simpson's beef (or yours) with "frontal assault" par-4s?

[James Bennett]

Dan

I don't have a beef with frontal assaults (others may).  I have found those that I played to be some of the more memorable holes.  I can't play them as well as a stronger player, but as long as I have an option to run the ball up somewhere near the green, I will continue to try and get a better tee shot away so that I might be able to hit such a green for two.

The thing about a frontal assault par 4 is it really rewards a good tee shot, and makes the second after a poor tee shot so much harder.  This can be contrasted to the outcomes of a par 3 and par 5 frontal assault where all play from the same spot (par 3, eg Commonwealth #9 in Melbourne) or are likely to be playing a shorter third (par 5, eg Pebble Beach, is it #14?)

The picture of Shinnecock #10 reminds me of the TV visions of Augusta #9.  A Riverland course (Waikerie) here in ustralia has a similar hole but no bunkers (none on the course at all).  Waikerie #15 is a frontal assault 420 yard par 4 dog leg left which I always struggle with, but always remember fondly.

[Pat_Mucci]

BCrosby,

How could you forget # 8 at NGLA, one of the best.
How about # 9 at Shinnecock.
# 2, # 6, # 11 and # 18 at Seminole.
# 18 at Olympic.
# 6 and # 13 at Pacific Dunes
# 1 at Bandon Dunes.

[Mark Brown]

No.3 at Augusta is a bit scary, even to the Tour players.

[A_Clay_Man]

The most extreme example of one,
 was the original tenth at BWR
 (now the 10th on the Meadow-Valley).
Positively one of the boldest examples
of pushing the GCA envelope that I likely
 will have ever seen.
 Pete Dye's creation didn't last either.
Likely for the same reason TePaul says.
The few times I did get to try an approach,
I distinctly remember being 140ish,
I hit 5 wood (my 185 club) and came up just short.

The last few yards were literally vertical.