Golf for Dummies - Out of Bounds Rule

[Mark Brown]

I play a lot but am in noway a student of the rules of golf, but wondered if it would be feasible to treat Out of Bounds the same way as a lateral hazard. Drop the ball where it first crossed the line and take a stroke penalty. (Didn't mean to steal your topic Kyle.)

One reason I ask is that a lot of the courses I play have real estate around them. In the past 5 or 10 years developers have made fairway corridors a lot wider, realizing that golfers would rather have wider fairways and pay a little more for their homesite. So it's not a big problem now.

But in the 70s and 80s, the corridors were small with housing on both sides and you could realistically hit the tee shot OB on virtually every hole if you were a little off. Good example is Turtle Point, a Nicklaus Course at Kiawah Is. which is a pretty good course but there is OB everywhere, which makes the OB rule seem overly penal.

Is it feasible and fair to play OB like a lateral hazard? And why or why not?

[Kyle Harris]

Mark,

You didn't steal my topic, and this actually comes up for debate every now and then. A lot of residential courses let you treat OB as a Lateral Water Hazard so you aren't making the same mistake in sending golf balls towards property and people more than necessary.

OB is traditionally the boundary of a golf course. It tends to be obscured in a lot of instances. Stroke and distance penalties happen when a situation such as a Lost ball or OB wouldn't let you accurately see where the ball crossed the hazard line or where your ball is in the case of a lost ball. (If you knew where it was... you could find it).

Therefore, the only objective way to put a ball in play is to go back to where you last played the shot and put it in play from there. It's really a matter of fairness to other players.

My gripe is when people use the Provisional Ball rule for balls in a Water Hazard. Most people don't realize that a ball needs to either be OB or Lost to hit a provisional. If it "could" be lost in a Water Hazard you need to look for it, and then decide which option to exercise. There is no provisional ball for a potentially hazard bound ball.

[Joe Perches]

There is no provisional ball for a potentially hazard bound ball.

I believe this is not a reasonable rule for public (crowded) golf.  Tournament golf, sure, fine.  Clubs where there is at least a 15 minute spacing and pace of play isn't a problem, fine.  6 minute starts at Woodley Lakes (generic golf with a capital "G", but in a plain black and white wrapper a la Repo Man), please hit a provisional.

[Kyle Harris]

Joe,

You're welcome to hit the shot at the tee, but it's not a "Provisional," it's the golfer exercising the option to replay the shot from the original location in lieu of dropping it with the point of entry between the ball and the hole, et al.

With a provisional, the provisional ball is not in play until it is declared lost or OB...

With a hazard, the ball is in play the minute it is replayed from the original location or dropped.

This prevents the golfer from making a horrible shot for the second, and THEN deciding to exercise the other options.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Brown,

When the rules are broken at leisure, the game ceases to be golf.

Amend one rule for convenience and soon the domino principle will affect them all.

There's a good reason why the rule have formed and evolved over these many centuries.

[mike_beene]

Is it true the R&A waived the out of bounds on 7 at Hoylake at the last Open there?The next Open there will be interesting.I can't think of a major venue with so much OB.The rules do evolve.(teeing areas,flagstick when putting,small ball,etc.)Too much OB in stroke play gets clowns mouthish.If we don't go to a lateral hazard rule,at least make penalty distance only.

[Jason Topp]

Is there any rational reason for not being allowed to hit a provisional when a ball might be in a hazard?  Can you hit one if it might be lost in a hazard?

I realize that there might be situations where the decision of whether or not to play a ball that is in the hazard could be influenced by whether or not the provisional is well played, but it strikes me that such situations are extremely rare and the inconvienience of having to walk back far outweighs any likely potential advantage one would have.  I always thought it was extremely stupid during that playoff at Torrey Pines where Mickelson hit a provisional for a potential lost ball, but then had to walk back to the tee when he found his ball in the hazard.

[Kyle Harris]

Jason,

The answer boils down to the options for dealing with a ball in a lateral hazard:

A: Drop within two clubs lengths no nearer to the hole at the point where the ball last cross the margin of the hazard

B: Keeping the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard between you and the hole, drop any distance no nearer the hole

or

C: Go back to the original spot and place a second ball in play.

Playing a "provisional" ball would be selecting option C. Once the ball is dropped or struck, it is in play.

This prevents a player from knocking one in a pond, hitting a second shot from the tee, and then determining that his option to drop is a better one so he takes that.

[Bob_Huntley]

Mark Brown,

When the rules are broken at leisure, the game ceases to be golf.

Amend one rule for convenience and soon the domino principle will affect them all.

There's a good reason why the rule have formed and evolved over these many centuries.

Pat,

Thank you for your succint reply. Why is it that the rules are so hard to follow? They are there, live with them.

[John_McMillan]

Is there any rational reason for not being allowed to hit a provisional when a ball might be in a hazard?

The rational reason is that if a ball is lost, or out of bounds, there is only one option for proceeding - the stroke and distance penalty.  If the ball is in a hazard, there are several options, including playing the ball as it lies.  Letting someone play a provisional for a ball in a hazard is akin to letting someone play 3 shots, and choose the one they like best.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mark,
I'd agree with what Pat said and Bob seconded but I can see why people always question it. I think this is partly due to the everchanging status of rules for OB and Lost Ball.
For instance, when OB was introduced the penalty was distance only but soon went to stroke and distance. It flip-flopped back and forth between these positions several times until 1968(I think), when it became, once again, a stroke and distance situation.
Today's rule for a Lost Ball is similar to what was originally intended but it too has done the same flip-flop as the OB rule. From 1961 on it firmly became a stroke and distance penalty.
Even the provisional ball rule has undergone much revamping. There was a time you could play a provisional for a ball lost in a hazard or an unplayable situation. I think that ended in 1961.

I think the way they now stand eliminates any potential problems between the procedures a player should follow for OB, lost balls, hazards and provisionals.

[Doug Siebert]

Is there any rational reason for not being allowed to hit a provisional when a ball might be in a hazard?

The rational reason is that if a ball is lost, or out of bounds, there is only one option for proceeding - the stroke and distance penalty.  If the ball is in a hazard, there are several options, including playing the ball as it lies.  Letting someone play a provisional for a ball in a hazard is akin to letting someone play 3 shots, and choose the one they like best.  

It seems to me that it would be reasonable to consider amending the rules such that you have the option of playing a provisional if you think you might be in a hazard, but if you do so your only option should you be in that hazard is to take the stroke and distance penalty and utilize that provisional.  It would have to be clearly declared that you are taking a provisional that covers ball in hazard.

I don't know what the big deal is anyway since when I play a provisional thinking I may be lost or OB that's how it is supposed to work.  I don't take one if I think I may be in a hazard since there are almost always better options, and because you can't be in a hazard if you just "think" you are in one.  I've never got a clear answer on the question of hitting at a hazard that's behind trees or a hill that's got no long grass around it so you can be 99.99% sure if you don't see your ball around it you must be in it even you didn't actually see it enter.

The one that really gets me is not the hazard, but unplayable.  If I hit into trees I might think "oh, could be lost" and hit another one.  But if I find it but decide it is unplayable, if I want to take stroke and distance and playing by the book, I'd have to go back to the tee.

Things get really stupid if you hit a drive near some trees and water next to OB.  Your ball could be OB, lost, in a hazard or unplayable.  You can take a provisional but it will only cover OB and lost.  If you amended the rules as I suggest it could also cover hazard and unplayable if you were willing to concede your other options under those rules.  In some circumstances you might be willing, because some hazards or unplayable areas would leave no other realistic option anyway.

I think those wily Scots were onto something when they invented the game as a match play contest!

[Kyle Harris]

Doug,

The situation you proposed is in effect today. You don't have to go down to your ball and walk back. If you see the splash from the tee, you can choose to exercise option C in my post above right then and there.

As for the apparenty idiocy of the rules in this situation, all it takes is a little forethought and awareness of what's going on, and the situations like Phil Mickelson's a few years back (remember him begging for the spectators not to look?) become VERY few and far between.

[Jerry Kluger]

I would like to know how many people truly play the lost ball/stroke and distance rule in their weekend nassaus, and more so if you are walking.  In most instances a ball which is out of bounds is usually seen as a possibility from where it was played and a provisional should be played.  However, I have found that in a large percentage of cases you had no reason to believe that you would not be able to find your ball so after you have looked for five minutes and not found it, can you face the group behind you and go back and hit another ball.  I don't know about you, but at the clubs where I have played I have almost never seen a player go back and replay his shot other than in tournament situations.  For that matter, how strictly do you interpret the rule concerning whether a ball is in a hazard or is it lost.  

[Michael Whitaker]

I try to get these guys in under four hours, it is TOUGH I tell ya.  They are so used to American style golf that it can drive me to the bar.

Sean - What is "American style golf?" What do the Americans do (or not do) that makes it tough to get in under four hours?

[Kyle Harris]

Michael Whitaker,

Predominant medal play is the real kicker.

Foursomes and other forms of match play move much faster.

[JohnV]

I'm not going to identify all the different people and posts I'm trying to answer here, more of a combined answer.

The penalty for a ball OB must be at least as severe as for a ball that is lost since a ball that is OB is a the result of a worse shot that that of most lost balls and the penalty should fit the crime.  The penalty for a lost ball must be at least distance only since we can't know where to drop if we don't have some point to go from.  For example for a ball lost in a water hazard we do have a point, which is where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard.  For a ball hit in 3" rough it wouldn't be right to drop in the fairway because that is where the ball last crossed the margin of the rough.  For a ball hit into trees or a bush, it also doesn't seem right.  For a ball that was hit somewhere and we don't really know where, we really have no point of reference..

Given that the penalty for a lost ball must be the most severe, that would mean that the maximum penalty would be the same for a ball in a water hazard or unplayable.  If it was distance only as has been tried in the past, that would mean that I could find my ball in a horrible spot, declare it unplayable and go back and try the shot again with no penalty.  There was a case of this in the Open at Troon in the 1960s where a player on the Postage Stamp hit a ball into a horrible lie in a bunker, he chose the distance only option of the unplayable lie rule, went back to the tee, hit it to a foot and made a par.  The ruling bodies felt this was letting him get too much relief by choosing distance only as there was almost no way he could have made par from the original lie and so the rule changed back to S&D.

A ball cannot be "declared lost".  The only ways a ball becomes lost are: 5 minute search, stroke is played at a substituted ball, the provisional is played at the place the ball is likely to be lost or nearer the hole.

Too much OB is not clown mouthish from the rules point of view as much as it is bad design.

When it comes to provisionals, they can be played any time that a ball might be OB or lost outside a water hazard.  If there is an area where there is a water hazard and other areas where the ball might be lost, you can play a provisional, but you will have a tough time proving reasonable evidence that the ball is in the water hazard.  Also, if you play a provisional because you didn't realize that the area was a water hazard, you are ok, but you have to abandon the provisinal once you find out it is a water hazard.

The reason you can't play a provisional for a ball in the water hazard is because you could end up with multiple balls in play and get to choose which one you like best.  Similarly, you can't play or use a provisional for an unplayable ball since you are the one who determines when the ball is unplayable and that choice would be biased by the location of the provisional.  

There are occasional times where a provisional is allowed for a ball in a water hazard under local rule.  See page 92 of the Rules of Golf for the wording.  It should only be used when the other options are not good and it would save a lot of time.  One hole where I've seen it is #18 at Pumpkin Ridge - Witch Hollow course where it is a 10 minute walk around/through the hazard and you really don't have any options for most shots that do end up in the hazard.  It is either there or it isn't, but you can't tell from the tee due to the high bushes.  In choosing to play the provisional, you give other options under the water hazard rule except for playing the ball as it lies.

When Phil hit his tee shot in the canyon during the playoff at Torrey Pines, the area was not marked as a hazard as it was this year.  Therefore he correctly played a provisional for a ball lost outside a water hazard.  Once his ball was found, he had to abandon the provisional.  At that point, he chose to declare the ball unplayable.  His only viable option was to go back to the tee.

For a ball to be considered lost in a water hazard, there must be "Reasonable Evidence" to that fact.  The PGA/USGA defined that as 95-98% sure at the rules workshops I've attended.  That basically means, it can't be lost anywhere else.

The group can't just say, "Oh that ball is probably in the water."  There needs to be reasonable evidence that it is there.  There are groups where the statement would mean that and there are groups where it wouldn't.  The player should be responisble for making that decision, not the groupa and if he has any integrity he will err on the side of it not being in the water.

I hope this helps your understanding of the rules and why they are the way they are.

[Jerry Kluger]

John: I agree with you that most of the rules have a sound basis or reasoning for their existence but today pace of play is critical and the stroke and distance penalty for a lost ball can be very difficult to deal with.  Let's say you are walking and learn that your tee shot is lost although you did not forsee this as a possibility when you teed off so you did not play a provisional.  You look for five minutes and cannot find it so you have to walk back to the tee, replay the shot, and then walk to your ball.  In the meantime, if you are playing a match there is a good chance that your opponent has not yet played his second shot.  This whole exercise can take 20 minutes, and you've fallen at least a hole behind the group in front of you and backed up everyone behind you.  

One of the great things about golf is that the rules of golf depend upon the integrity of the players.  So players call a penalty on themselves even if no one else saw the infraction.  What would be wrong with a rule that stated that in the case of a lost ball, where neither the player nor his playing partners believed that the player's ball could be lost, that the player drop a ball at the spot where he believed that his ball would be located with a penalty of one stroke.  So if you pushed your tee shot toward the trees but you thought it would easily be found, and none of your playing partners thought it could be lost and had suggested that you play a provisional ball, and it is not located within five minutes, you would drop a ball within the trees where you believed it would be, take a stroke and play on. I agree that it would not necessarily be as severe as stroke and distance, but it could be when you lose it some deep gorse.  If nothing else, in some cases it might encourage players to hit a provisional.  

Let me suggest something else.  Go back to the incident with Mickelson at Torrey Pines and say the same thing occurred at your club on a weekend morning.  You have found your first ball in a horrible lie in the very deep grass and you know that if you try and hit it you'll never get it out of there.  You've played a provisional and the ball is in the fairway but you can't play it if you take an unplayable lie.  Are you going to tell your buddies in your $5 nassau that you are going to walk back to the tee and play from there and face the wrath of every member behind you?  Somehow to me, if your group allows you to play the provisional you are not violating the spirit of the rules.  In this particular scenario you are most likely going to make at least a double bogey and I would have no problem with your posting the score.  

[Jason Topp]

John - I appreciate your description and clarification of the Mickelson situation.  Your description makes more sense than my recollection.

Your description provides a strong justification for the current rules from the pespective of fairness.  From my point of view, however, I think the practical difficulties in following the rules should sometimes outweigh fairness concerns.  Mickelson already hit a provisional ball, requiring him to walk back to the tee is not a problem in a playoff, but it really slows up play if it is on a crowded course.  In my view, both the rules and the course design should try and avoid such situations if at all possible.

A similar situation occurs at number 16 at Hazeltine.  If one slices a tee shot, because it is blind, it is sometimes impossible to know whether the ball is in the hazard or not.  If it is, sometimes the best option is to re-tee and you know that while still on the tee.  In that sort of situation, I think you should be able to hit a provisional.

Perhaps as you suggest the best approach is to have a local rule in such situations.

[Mark Brown]

John,

Thank you for providing the only explanation that holds up, because the rules for OB and lost ball have been changed in the past. It drives me nuts when people just say that's the rules so just live with it.

The key is what you said about the penalty for OB has to be as severe as for a lost ball. That is logical.

[JohnV]

Jerry,  if it is you and your buddies playing golf together for a $5 nassau I would assume you are playing match play.  In which case, just concede the hole, drop a ball and have fun playing out the hole.  That is not even considered practice by the USGA.  Or if it is a four-ball match, let your partner hold your end for that hole.  Just don't come in and tell me how you shot the best score of your life.

There is a well-known story about a guy who was a rules official who went out to play golf with some guys.  When they found out he was a rules expert, they said, "Well, we don't play by all the rules, all the time."  He said that was ok.  On the first hole, he hit his shot into a bunker.  He walked in, picked it up and threw it on the green.  They other guys started screaming that he couldn't do that.  His answer was, "Oh that is one rule that you do play by.  Tell me the rest so I know what game we are playing."

As for the amount of time it takes, it is less than you think.  The average golfer I've timed can walk 100 yards in a minute.  So if I hit my tee shot 250 yards and have to walk back to the tee, it is a 5 minute round trip.  If I take a minute to hit the shot (which would have Shivas screaming   ) we are talking about 6 minutes more than just dropping a ball, not 20 minutes.  If my group was in position with the group in front, we shouldn't be that far back at this point and should be able to catch up quickly.  I can assure you that less time is spent on this than on  four guys putting on their golf glove for every shot during the round.  And since most guys have carts today it would be even less time.

Jason, if the incident with Phil happened on a crowded public course, the player wouldn't have even looked for the ball.  Remember Phil didn't want it to be found.  But, to make it more relevant, you are right that during the average round of golf on a Saturday on a public course, the person would just go play the provisional.  So be it.  But if it is a tournament of any type, you have to play by the rules and changing the rule in the way you would suggest would open a huge can of worms.

I haven't been to Hazeltine, but from what I've seen on the tube, it would probably would make sense for the Rule Committee at the club to adopt the local rule.

[THuckaby2]

JV:

MANY thanks for post #17 here.  I battle constantly with friends over this rule, and they just don't seem to get the principle behind it.  I'm gonna laminate you post and give it to them on little cards they can attach to their golf bags.  That makes so much sense and explains it so well... thanks again.

TH

ps - side question:  wouldn't this (the OB/lost ball stroke and distance rule) be among the most-broken of all rules?  SO many people I see just play "everything lateral" outside of formal competitive play... which does make a certain sense on a crowded course... one would be bitch-slapped if he made the long walk back to the tee at Santa Teresa on a non-tourney Saturday, for example....

[JohnV]

Tom, not even close.  Look at how many times a round you have a lost ball vs how many times a round a player can roll his ball over into a better lie, or ask another player who is not his partner what club he used or when playing stroke play picks up his ball a foot from the hole.  The violation may be one of the more egregious ones in terms of distance covered etc, but it isn't the most violated.

We all know it happens all the time and we can all understand why it happens.  I'd bet that most if not every golfer who does it knows that it isn't the real rule.  But, I couldn't see the rule ever changing to allow it.

As I say to people I'm playing with who get worried when they find out that I'm a rules official, "As long as we don't have a bet, you can do anything you want."

[THuckaby2]

JV:

VERY good point.  How soon I forget the WAY more common rules violations...

And you are oh so right that there are a signficant number of golfers who have no idea what the real rule is re OB/lost ball... they are either never taught, or refuse to believe it. I've actually had several friends tell me I'm wrong when I explain stroke and distance penalty...  

In any case, I have heard you utter that line you mention in person... you remain VERY wise.  The problem is, once people know about your job, well... those who are interested in the rules, and who ought to know them well but do mess them up too often... like ME... tend to pester you with questions about odd scenarios and other things.  Your good humor for such remains very appreciated.

 

[JohnV]

Tom,

Don't worry, I have no problem answering rules questions, no matter how off the wall.  It is a part of my job.