Railroads "in" play

[ian]

We all know examples like the first at Prestwick, where you try your to keep you ball of the rail line. Definately one of the best opening holes in golf. There are lots of other examples similar in nature at many old clubs like the 11th at Royal Troon where it represents the boundry.

But Willie Park Jr. used the railroad as a more direct hazard.
Does anyone else know of examples like this at other courses. Do any still exist?

At on hole on the Dixie Course (at Royal Montreal - NLE) known as "island" Willie used the railroad as a back hazard to complete the island created on three sides by the creek.



This is the 2nd shot on a long par four where the shot was indeed over the railroad to a wonderful plateau green. Royal was bisected by a few rail lines at Dixie.



Now for me this is one of the most interesting lost holes. Note the 2nd hole at Weston (by Wilie Park Jr.), has an enormous bridge running right through the middle of the 2nd shot. The bridge was there first!



Here is a look from the tee, and the famous 2nd shot where players either played over ( I don't think I could today) or played btween the columns! Has anyone seen anything else similar? Is anything like this still in existance? This hole survived to 1950.

[Dave Kemp]

Ian,

It looks like the plan shows the Humber River and the bottom photo looks like something from Weston CC?   It is a Park Jr course also is it not?

Dave

[JNC Lyon]

That is possibly the most intriguing golf course photo I have seen. Is that Weston Country Club? Indeed I have read a little about the hole's evolution.

Magnolia Grove's Crossings course has a tee at the 16th which requires the golfer to play over the tracks, but I am not sure if it is used very often. The hole itself was interesting, as was the rest of the course IMO.

[Joe Hancock]

Thornapple Point GC in Grand Rapids has a railway running through it, but not really in play. Of course, when(not IF) your game sucks, anything is in play!


Joe

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ian,
Leave it to you to bring the most interesting of subjects to the forefront!

Count me as crazy, but I think that one hole with the trestle would be a blast to play. Really a lot of fun with quirk all over. Could you imagine hitting a hot punch shot though that!?!?!?! What a kick!

SFGC's 12th of course has the old ridge or berm that used to be a rail line, pre-golf course that runs through it. It even used to serve as the built up tee for Little Tillie.

I also think of how cool the Eden Course must have been in its original days when the trains would be coming into town. Trains and those greens--WOW!

Just some great stuff!

[ian]

Yes it is Weston, I for some reason forgot to right the name down.

[RJ_Daley]

http://www.madisongolf.com/sixmilemain.html

I was approached to be an investor in this one back in 1988 or so.  The railroad right of way dispute that commenced, took about 10 years to resolve, making it to I think the Wisconsin Supreme Court.  Boy, am I glad I didn't get allaboard on that one!

[CHrisB]

Ian,
Amazing picture of the 2nd hole at Weston.

The only hole I've seen that is even remotely similar is the 18th hole at Tryall in Jamaica, which hosted the European Tour's Johnnie Walker Classic in the early 90's. The tee shot goes through the pillars of an old aqueduct, but it really doesn't compare to the problems posed by the rail bridge at the 2nd at Weston.

From the course profile on this site, the view from the back tee:

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Royal Adelaide's 14th hole plays across the tracks with the tee shot. It is only slightly raised above ground level.

Would the good folks at Weston ever consider going back to that? Could they make up for the loss of a hole somewhere else?

[ian]

Ben,

There would be no loss of hole, the 2nd and 3rd were orginally fours. The 3rd would make a much better four from the old (current ladies) tee. The loss would be a stroke to par.

Would they do it, I think the idea would be met with stunned silence; and there's always that "L" word nobody on here likes to talk about (liability).

[Tommy_Naccarato]

You know, I have always had this faith that Canadian's in their infinite wisdom, always had it over us. That they knew better and had a lot of common sense us American's lost many years ago.

Then I read this post and say to myself, "WHY? WHY? WHY?"

Fun golf lost to a "a stroke to par." And then I start thinking of the Avro Arrow and just how cool that thing would have been.....

Do you guys realize how many Canadian's migrated to Southern California's then thriving aerospace industry after that one? They all became citizens of the US too!

(Yes Ben, I just got done watching "The Arrow" again!)

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tommy,

We have a really cool society up here; much different than in the USA. However, our problem is, a few too many Canadians with ambition and money that would prefer to live like Americans!

We're addressing this problem the best way can  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jeff,
I wish Canada would just claim Baja as their own independent state, sort of like we claim Puerto Rico ours. Kick out all of the ingrates and then we could all live in peace and amazing dunelands with nice warm weather all year long.

It would be a coastline of solid golf.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

And yes, I would renounce my US citizenship if it indeed happened. at least until George W. Bush is out of office.

Until then, I'll peacefully pay my $3.00-4.00 a gallon for gas; accept that corporations are actually good guys wanting to benefit my well being, as well as the rest of the world by confusing freedom with consumerism and that singularly, it's all about the rest of the world wanting to live the American Way. (all while not say anything negative about him or his family while they are in office.  After all, to do so would be un-American, thus grounds for high-treason with this government.)

[ian]

Tommy,

Par has nothing to do with the reason it's not there.

They removed the hole because it was concidered too quirky, too dangerous for players, and they had issues with the railway (the golf ball in Halifax is a funny story). The line above the hole is now the main passenger line into Toronto (that is an issue whether we think the hole is cool or not).

Don't we already own the Baja?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ian, Not knowing the site, what are the hazards? Surely it isn't that they think a train is going to derail on to the golf course is it?

If so, I think the chances of being hit by lighting much more likely.

Oh Canada........... (Just practicing!:))

And what movie is this from?:

Baja? I don't own anything in Baja!

[ian]

Tommy,

Those passenger trains have windows.

No idea on the movie.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Tommy,
I really must send you more mediocre Canadian movies, ha!

IA,
Liability for hitting a train, or a shot coming back off the bridge?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

BCD, Now wait a second! I thought it was a pretty good movie--in terms of being made for T.V. and all!

Ian,
Sorry, I don't get the liability, off of the window-thing.  Seems to me to be a poor excuse by someone(s) that could never perfect the shot to make it through those trestles!

I say bring it back! Restore the wholesome goodness of Royal Mahhhtreeallll'............

[ian]

It's Weston were taking about, but I'll tell you what, you put it back.

Royal Montreal (Dixie) is underneath the Dorval airport in Montreal. The land is a little flat for my taste.

[Bill_McBride]

Tommy, no politics please, you'll get Lou Duran all wrapped around the axle!

re: railroads and golf courses....

My home course, Pensacola CC, had a rail line running right across the 18th fairway, about 280 yds out, until 1959.  The line ran from the main line of the Gulf Coast & Mobile RR out to the Naval Air Station.  When the train came through, play stopped until it was gone!   You can still feel a bit of a hump walking that fairway where the railbed used to be.

One of those goofy Jack holes at Grand Cypress, the par 5 with the volcano green, has a rail line off to the right of the containment chocolate drop mounds.  I think it is for a light rail line.  It's not a good place to hit either your tee ball or second shot!

[James Bennett]

Ben Dewar

You are right about the 14th tee at Royal Adaelaide, but it is only the latest back tee, and the line does not really come into play on this hole.  However, the line has always been a part of the 2nd hole, running parallel to the hole about 40 metres left of fairway, or about a good duck hook.  It is an integral part of the course.  There is many a story of a ball 'lost' in a train heading west or east.   The line is crossed twice, from the 1st green to 2nd tee and the 13th green to 14th tee.  It runs right past (5 metres away) the clubhouse.  In the early years, members caught the train to the course.

The railline was significant to the engagement of MacKenzie by RAGC during his Australian visit.  Prior to the rerouting, several holes played across the line, but generally around the sandhills.  Because of concerns about the development of the line (electrification I think, which didn't happen), MacKenzie was engaged, and the routing redeveloped along with MacKenzie bunkering and strategy.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

James,
I wish we had caught up when I was there in November, next time though.

Although I agree with you about the railway's proximity one two, it is a similar set up to Prestwick, whereas the back tee at 14 actually does play over the track. I had to wait for the small commuter train to pass, before I could hit my drive.

[Jonathan Cummings]

There can't be many GGAers besides me that has played this course but the back nine at Prairie Falls in Post Falls Idaho has a main trunk that cuts directly through the nine.  When a train goes through, it is so loud that on some hole you simply have to stop playing.  I think the owner/architect only had the land they had so this was less intentional than it was by default.

JC

[ian]

The currnt 2nd hole for context. The 1950 green is on the left, and the 1954-55 green is on the right. You can easily see where the old hole would have gone.