[TEPaul]

Sully:

As for Geoff Shackelford and his opinions which thankfully he has the ability and platform to air as publicly as he does--I view him as a futurist---as a guy who's frankly stripping through all the crap, the postering, the BS and looking at the big picture---certainly in an historic sense, which of course needs to be looked with a sport like golf---because golf's history is so important to it---perhaps more than any other sport for a number of reasons.

Of course, there're a lot of people, and people in high places in golf, who don't like to hear what he has to say but they can't avoid him and his opinions anymore. Well, of course, they can avoid him but not without running the risk of being exposed for something perhaps they don't want to be exposed for!

There's a lot in Geoff's mind that's connected to this distance problem--including the future interest of the game for Tour fans. I don't know that I agree with that but primarily because I just don't know---I have no stats on that at all---and consequently not much of a feeling for what the future may bring that way. Sometimes I'm shocked by the crap the sports viewing public is willing to put up with!  

But Geoff is different from many on here I think because he's prepared, he's doing or has done his homework when he writes and if he feels some of his logic isn't persuasive enough, he has the sense and ability to go back and research and amend that.

When he writes he's got some truly revealing analogies on his side to other sports and what's transpired with them. Sometimes, in the broad scheme of things most don't understand what's going on right under them when it's happening. That was certainly true of amateur tennis and the game of tennis and its amateur regulatory body. That analogy to golf and its regulatory bodies is really powerful and revealing and he's pointing that out.

Will they listen? Who really knows. There've been other futurists like GeoffShac before--not the least of which was Max Behr. It's no wonder Goeff is fascinated by him.

They didn't really listen to Max Behr 60-80 years ago. Did the fact they didn't ruin golf? Not really. If they don't listen to a guy like GeoffShac now will it ruin golf this time around? Personally, I doubt it will ruin golf---golf seems like a pretty hard thing to ruin but there's no question in my mind that things may change if those who administer to golf don't begin to listen to someone like him. And if things do change the way they did with Geoff's analogy--to tennis---will people like us regret it? You bet we will because something the game had, and still does to some extent will be gone and it probably won't ever be possible to get it back as much as we once had it.

It takes all kinds, obviously, but in my opinion Geoff Shackelford is an incredibly important voice right now. I hope they listen to him--golf would be better in the future, in my opinion, if they both listened and acted on it this time around.

[Pat_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Perhaps too many of you/us have taken our eye off the ball.

Instituting a dialogue on details or specs is totally irrelevant.

What is the SOLE relevant factor is the establishment of a meaningful philosophy/policy by the USGA.  They have to be commited to a PRINCIPLE and have a PLAN.

Without a mission statement defining their goals, methods and time tables for meeting them, nothing will happen.

And, if it does happen, the rest is just details that can be worked out.

[TEPaul]

"Instituting a dialogue on details or specs is totally irrelevant."

Pat:

That very well may be the single stupidest thing you've ever said on here. If one doesn't even know how he got here how in the world could he be expected to know where he was going?

You're pretty good at constantly defining what you think the problem is---basically that there is a distance problem which all of us know anyway but you should try a bit more to define some solutions. You're technique seems to be that pointing out the problem is the solution. I wish things were that easy in life.  

[Alfie]

Great discussion - but that's all it is ?

Every thread of this nature inevitably returns full circle to dead end land ! Perhaps I'm a radical, and perhaps radical thought is what golf needs within the R & A / USGA to compensate for years of incompetancy ?

Tep said ; "I don't like using the phrase "get it" but I do know what's meant by it on here"
At the risk of irritating Tom, I believe that Pat Mucci's previous post suggest's that Pat does "GET IT !" But then, I also believe that Tom Paul himself, actually does "GET IT !"

The problem lies in the FACT that so many in the world of golf have simply never "HAD IT !" It's a matter of education (IMO) and I'm talking from personal experience.

I'm with the R&A /USGA on the principle of "universal" change as opposed to Bifurcation as proposed by Geoff ShaCkelford. But I'd still love to see bifurcation take place (as a compromise) as at least then, something would have been tried
in order to solve the PROBLEM. Perhaps Hootie will oblige some day ?

THE BALL CAN and should be rolled back and it wont hurt at all. Close your eyes and imagine playing your short, unfashionable, architecturally outdated local muni with a ball that just doesn't go so far - but using your hi-tech clubs to assist you along the way. No more worries about lengthening the course and if the course is already too long for you - do what the Pro's do, and play off the ladies tees !

Peter Dawson of the R&A has already stated in public that rolling the ball back would be a relatively simple process. So why don't we just keep things simple - and do it ?

Actions speak louder than words, especially when golf has been trying to address the distance / skill problem for around 80 + years !

Alfie. (with respect to the DON'T GET IT'S !)

[Pat_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Before anyone can fix a problem, they have to recognize that one exists.

Whether it's a marriage, a business or an organization, if one party doesn't recognize the existence of a problem, the solution will never be found.

Denial or failure to acknowledge only perpetuates the problem, in most cases allowing it to get worse.

Recognition is the first and the most critical aspect of problem solving.

That recognition has never formally materialized from the USGA.

Until that happens, the problem will remain unaddressed and unresolved.

All of the solutions in the world are useless if the party charged with oversight responsibility refuses to officially acknowledge that the problem exists, so rather then waste your time with suggested technical modifications, use your time to convince the USGA to step up to the plate and officially declare that there is a problem, and that they will address it, and resolve it, as soon as possible.  

[TEPaul]

Alfie:

If you ask me, everyone, including the R&A, USGA, PGA Tour and others would like to roll back distance. Why they haven't done it yet or why they feel it's difficult to do is the real story, don't you think? Unfortunately this whole thing is just not so simple as a "do it/don't do it" thing, although it seems like a number of people would like to think so.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
Before anyone can fix a problem, they have to recognize that one exists."

Pat:

Man, is that deep!  

If the manufacturers called up the USGA, R&A and PGA Tour tomorrow (or maybe they might wait until Monday) and told all of them they wanted to roll the ball back by about 50 yards right now what do you think the R&A, USGA and the PGA Tour would say to that?

[Pat_Mucci]

TEPaul,

That's never going to happen, so why create an absurd hypothetical ?

The USGA/R&A must take the lead, not third parties with a vested interest in the outcome.

What you can't seem to come to grips with is the USGA's continuing failure to officially recognize the problem.

[Alfie]

Tom,

quote ; "If you ask me, everyone, including the R&A, USGA, PGA Tour and others would like to roll back distance. Why they haven't done it yet or why they feel it's difficult to do is the real story, don't you think?"

I totally agree. As I also agree with Pat's comments regarding the R & A / USGA (not) "openly" recognising that a problem exists ?
Both bodies have a remit to lead in the general interests of the sport. And one (USGA) is leading the other  (R&A) like a dog on a leash. The silence is deafening here in Scotland !
The PGA's on the other hand, will continue on their tranquill path's until the shit hits TV ratings and declining interest in the Pro game.
If the 3rd party that Pat refers to is actually "the industry" - then I'll add a 4th party, which is the general golfing public. The latter being my deepest concern as I'm one of them - but only one ! When this topic continually arises here (thankfully, as it seldom does anywhere else) we find far too many opinions based on SELF ! What I want - what I like - I, thy all the time. These people NEED to wake up and understand why golf is here in the first instance ? Because somebody back in their geographic history was decent enough to expend their time and energies to give them golf !

Unfortunately, modern golf has been infected by general politics but where the ruling bodies (golf's politicians) don't have an "up to date" general policy addressing technology ?
Well.....of course they do, but they're hardly keeping things democratic for Joe golfer, unless Joe happens to be a member of the same Masonic group ? Secrecy, and all that !
(So let's not dwell too much on that scam they call the Joint Statement of Principles !)

Surely these people (R&A / USGA) are aware of the old saying ; you can fool some of the people some of the time.... ? How much longer does good old Joe want to be gulled - and how much longer can golf retain it's credibility - AS A SPORT ?

ps ; excellent thread on skill. Even though that's us going back to historical fact / data  

Alfie

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
That's never going to happen, so why create an absurd hypothetica?"

Pat:

That's not much of an answer. Is there some reason you don't want to answer the question?    

[TEPaul]

"The silence is deafening here in Scotland!"

Alfie:

True! If you happen to be in the area of St Andrews would you do us all a favor and go over there and wake those people up? Their problem isn't malfeasance---they haven't gotten past nonfeasance yet.  

[Pat_Mucci]

TEPaul,

If the manufacturers called up the USGA, R&A and PGA Tour tomorrow (or maybe they might wait until Monday) and told all of them they wanted to roll the ball back by about 50 yards right now what do you think the R&A, USGA and the PGA Tour would say to that?

This is the hypothetical question you wanted me to answer.

If you'll reread it, the absurdity becomes self evident.

You want someone to do the dirty work for the USGA/R&A, and in this case you've chosen to have the manufacturers make a wildly magnanimous gesture.

It isn't going to happen.

The USGA/R&A have to take the initiative.

First,     they have to admit that there is a problem.
Second, they have to make a public declaration with respect
            to their perception of the problem.
Third,     they have to develop a plan to solve the problem,
             including specifics related to balls and implements.
Fourth    They have to announce a timetable.
Fifth      They have to pull the trigger.

I believe that Augusta could be a catalyst, instrumental in the success of such a plan. [/color]

[Neil Regan]

I believe that Augusta could be a catalyst, instrumental in the success of such a plan. [/color]

Pat,

  How about a joint effort from the USGA Member Clubs, particularly those that have hosted, or will host, USGA events ?

[JESII]

b]

I believe that Augusta could be a catalyst, instrumental in the success of such a plan. [/b]

WHY?

I don't disagree in theory, but I have no first hand evidence to suggest they might.
[/color]

[JESII]

Is anybody able to easilt explain the business dynamics involved with such a proposition?

What are the manufaturing industries primary concerns and complaints?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Regarding your post #61, if have no problem with any of that. But like most people do, you seem to think this should be some "either/or" solution. I don't. Go at the source of the problem with anything and everything at your disposal and simultaneously.

You think the USGA doesn't recognize the problem? What's the problem? Distance increases? Well, where do you think those distance increases come from?

Did the USGA order or encourage them? Did the R&A? Did the PGA Tour? Of course not. The golf ball and equipment manufacturer's did and have continued to for decades on end with every single trick at their disposal!

Obviously you think it's so impossible to have any effect on them you don't even think anyone should try. I don't believe that. If distance increases are slowly killing the game, why not go try to explain that to the manufacturers? Do you think they really want to kill the very thing that sustains them? And if you think they do want to kill the thing that sustains them, who doesn't recognize the problem then?

It's not just recognizing there is a problem---it's also recognizing the source of the problem of distance increase if you really want to do something effective about it long term. And if you don't or can't understand the SOURCE of this problem is the manufacturers and always has been then you sure don't know much!

If you want to stop Al Queda's terrorism and Osama bin Laden, what do you do, put higher and higher barriers around this country and put 100,000 people to work trying to figure out where he's gonna hit us next? Of course not---you go find the sumbitch and his network wherever they are and you change his mind for him permanently!

[TEPaul]

Sully:

What some call the "ANGC solution" to the distance problem is basically this;

The Masters is an independent tournament---it's not run by the USGA nor the PGA Tour. As such, basically the Masters can do whatever they want to do.

A few years ago Hootie Johnson, the powerful president of ANGC apparently was getting so sick of these distance increases he sort of implied or floated the idea that he just might REQUIRE that the competitors play a dialed down distance ball so he wouldn't have to keep adding length to ANGC to keep the course relevent to these pros.

Obviously there're some problems to ANGC requiring such a ball (what some are calling the "Augusta ball"). What are the players going to say to their manufacturers and the contracts they have with them if they play some other ball at the Masters is certainly one thing.

Another is that the Rules of Golf do not now have a local rule provision (like the "one ball" rule) to allow the Masters Tournament committee to even require the players do such a thing in the tournament's "conditions of competition" (Rule 33). Falling to have such a local rule would mean the Masters basically would not be played under the USGA/R&A Rules of Golf.

Some say ANGC doesn't even care about the latter and would just tell the USGA/R&A to instantly put a rule in the book to that effect if they cared enough about the Masters being played not by the Rules of Golf!

The other problem is who's going to R&D and make an "Augusta Ball"? GeoffShac says any of the manufacturers could and in no time. GeoffShac has even told WallyU and Titleist that if they made an "Augusta Ball" they could not only get ahead of the market they just might turn themselves into heroes as saviors of the game. GeoffShac has a great point about that but apparently WallyU doesn't see it that way. I wonder why that is?  

But here's a very reliable story from a longtime SI writer a couple of years ago. Hootie was really thinking about doing this about 2-3 years ago. Apparently ANGC had even told SI they could break the "Augusta Ball" story as a great exclusive. SI was thrilled, they were about to go to press with the story and suddenly word came in from ANGC to kill the story dead and any mention of it or an "Augusta Ball".

What the hell happened? I'll give you one guess!

[Pat_Mucci]

TEPaul,

No Tom, the USGA hasn't recognized or accepted the problem publicly, and privately, a short, few years ago I had discussions with an Executive Committee member who I know, like and respect, however, I was shocked at his "party line" responses that reinforced the systemic denial that a problem actually existed.

The USGA was sleeping at the switch when the manufacturers passed by their post.

Your confusing the authority for spec'ing the ball with the process of manufacturing the ball.  ANGC isn't going to make the ball, the manufacturers will.

See my response to JES II, below.

Neil Regan,

That's the natural effect.
Since Regional, State and Local Golf Associations adhere to and abide by USGA rules and regulations they would adopt the USGA standards as would individual golf clubs for sanctioned events.  And eventually, for daily play.

JES II,

If, in 2006 the USGA came out with the first of their revised spec golf balls, their competition ball, to be effective for play commencing in 2008, and ANGC immediately declared that the USGA competition ball would be the ball of play in the 2008, it would provide instant recognition and immediate acceptance of the ball.  ANGC's embracing of the ball would send the signal to the world of golf that they agree with and will abide by the USGA.  That's a powerful signal.

TEPaul,

Do you remember what Tommy Lee Jones responded to Harrison Ford when Harrison Ford said the was innocent, that he didn't kill his wife, when he was being pursued through the water tunnel in the movie, "The Fugitive" ?

His response was, " I don't care"
That's not my job, my job is to catch you.

And so it is with the manufacturers, THEY DON"T CARE.
Their job is to perpetuate themselves ..... profitably.

It's not their job to be the guardians of the game.

Do you think that the owner of a building who leases 250,000 square feet of space to a tenant, on a 30 year lease, is going to tell the tenant that he's figured out how to alter their operations so that they'll only need 150,000 square feet, and let them amend their lease, mid lease, down to 150,000 square feet ?

The two organizations are at cross purposes.


   

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Excellent analogy to Tommy Lee Jones and Harrison Ford in the movie The Fugitive!

Of course it doesn't surprise me in the slightest you missed the entire point of all that in the movie!!  

Do you remember the last scene in the movie and the last few lines when Tommy Lee put Ford in the police car and then unlocked his handcuffs and flipped them into the front seat? I guess you forgot that and it doesn't surprise me at all. One might just call that the "denouement" of the entire movie!!  

Ford said:

"I thought you didn't care?"

And Tommy Lee said;

"I don't! But don't tell anybody that".

And then they both looked at each other and laughed, Tommy Lee hit the top of the car, said to the driver "let's get out of here....."

Scene fades to THE END!

Obviously, you completely missed the point between the two of them...at that point Lee knew the truth about Ford, the fugitive------and he cared!

[Pat_Mucci]

TEPaul,

At the point that Tommy Lee Jones had him at gunpoint, and forced him to make a death defying leap, HE DIDN"T KNOW.

His knowledge came after the good doctor and the one armed assailant were apprehended.

20-20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
At the point that Tommy Lee Jones had him at gunpoint, and forced him to make a death defying leap, HE DIDN"T KNOW."

Well, exactly, you big idiotic bozo! Maybe Tommy Lee didn't know it at that point but he came to know it and care didn't he? Whatta call that---another hypothetical??   The manufacturers DON"T KNOW IT either AT THIS POINT but the USGA/R&A and all their considerable allies including the PGA Tour who want to see this happen are going to combine their forces and show the manufacturers that if they don't stop screwing around trying to ruin the game of golf and all its architecture simply to satisfy a bunch of faceless stockholders of their mega parent corporations, they're gonna look like the only black hats in all of this and they're gonna be so disrespected by all golfers they'll need to either get on board the train or they'll need to make some death defying leaps of their own into insolvency one of these days!

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