Is Seminole that great?

[Wayne Freeman]

Just returned from a great week in Florida and was fortunate to play Seminole. But I'm having a little trouble understanding what makes it so lofty in the ratings-  All 3 major magazines rank it between #13-15 in the U.S., and the last Golf Mag world list had it at 22.  Sure it's a great old Ross track from 1929, and everywhere you go you hear another Hogan story.  I know his reported favorite hole in golf is the par 4 6th there.  I really liked to front 9, and it's pretty neat that you climb up to that 6th hole for a  panoramic view of the ocean. But I thought there were quite a few rather average holes, and 1 and 10 and 2 and 11 are almost carbon copies of eachother.  I also wasn't very impressed with 17 and 18, which I heard were awesome signature holes.  Although they are on the ocean, you can only see the water from the tee-  it looks like Royal Troon.  The member I played with was ticked because the greens were running so fast that it was almost ridiculous, especially with several pin placements right on the false front ledges.  The clubhouse is pretty awesome though.  I would appreciate some insights-  I'm thinking Seminole is maybe top 40 in the country.  

[Nick Pozaric]

you better watch out, I think I see lightining over your head.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

in a word "YES"

[Gerry B]

Wayne - I understand how you feel - personally I love the course and bonus points for a bartender in the locker room.

Many so - called critics  / experts have  Seminole and Chicago GC on their  2 most overrated course list.

IMHO - there are 4  - 5 courses that between them have hosted more than 20 US Opens -that I would rank at least 10-20 places lower than their current position  - but others obviously disagree as the raters have spoken.

We can debate further on the 26th.  

[Lawrence Largent]

I've played seminole and the clubhouse, locker room, and setting is a little overwhelming. In my opinion I might like Holston Hills a touch more. I know the people here might think I'm crazy, but If Holston Hills was sitting on that ocean property I'm inclined to say it would be ranked Higher. I'm interested to read what other people have to say about it.


Lawrence

[Brad Klein]

Wayne, you make some interesting points. I think that 1-2 and 10-11 are more interesting than they first appear because Ross flips the shot angles from drive to approach, meaning tnat on those holes, as with most of the par-4s at Seminole, if you need a right-to-left tee shot you need a left-to-right approach, and vice versa. That's pretty strategic on his part. I think in its day the alternate fairway option on 15 was radical. Also, the routing is impressive, with so many greens and tees workng onto and off from that major dune on the far (northwest?) corner of the property.

True, you don't see much of the ocean and it's not in play, but Ross was a good enough engineer to know that if you saw a lot of the ocean and it were in play, the storm surges would overwhelm the golf course at times. Even he knew that sea water and golf turf don't mix. When Seminle got flooded out by the hurricane last fall, it was back-up from the drain area and rain water, not ocean surge from storm and tide.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

What was the direction and velocity of the wind ?

What tees did you play ?

[TEPaul]

I think more people ask that question about Seminole than any other high-ranked American golf course I know of---and probably by a lot. But almost always it seems to be people who see or play the course for the first time---I've seen so many of them say that about Seminole. But I don't really remember a single golfer who's gotten to know that course who continues to say that---not a single one. Why that is--is hard to say--I guess the course is something of an enigma that way but it's also one---like a Maidstone, that can be remarkably variable and obviously that factor has a good deal to do with the wind. Seminole is definitely not the type of course one should try to rank playing it only once---that's for sure! I played down there all the time in the 1970s and 1980s and I thought it was a good course but maybe not that great and then in the 1990s they just started maintaining it a little different and it was like it completely came alive! The difference was like night and day and the interesting thing is it basically looked the same (except they removed all the underbrush and a lot of the trees that choked off the views through the course.

[HamiltonBHearst]

From what I have heard from the raters on this site, they are more than capable of rating a course they have only seen once.  

It seems that the rating being "higher" than others think after one visit would in fact show how well the raters are doing the job.

[TEPaul]

HamiltonBHearst:

If anyone I ever heard say that about Seminole was a rater I wasn't aware of it.

But I'll tell you something about rating and rankings and Seminole. Maybe 15+ years ago the virtual czar at Seminole at that time decided the course needed to brought back out of years in what might've been considered the "doldrums" of being treated like a "members" course. The interesting old famous pro-am there was a thing of the past and the course was beginning to slip down in the rankings.

So he began to go to town on the course, cleaning out undergrowth and trees, making the course firmer and faster, changing the grass on the greens, making them a lot faster, redoing the bunkering etc, etc, and basically making Seminole play a lot more intense if they wanted it to. He also saw to it that a lot more top-flight amateurs joined the club. He also started the Coleman which initially borrowed PV's Crump Cup list.

Initially, that did not get the reaction from the rating and ranking crowd he wanted it to and so he virtually banned raters from the course and told the magazines he didn't even want the course considered anymore.

I'm not sure what happened in recent years or what-all that did and what-all happened to Seminole in the rankings over those years or where it is now but that's the story with Seminole and ranking!

So if raters are back at Seminole now rating and ranking the course after a single round and they see the value in it after a single round----then good for them!

Incidentally, that old pro-am has been rejuvenated too and it happened to be the other day. That thread on here recently that mentioned that Hank Kuehne actaully drove the 16th green was during that rejuvenated pro-am. I find that to be really amazing as I remember when some of the long-hitting pros back then used to really have to bust it to carry that entire sand hazard on the right. And last night we had a meeting at my club, GMGC, and I mentioned that Kuehne had driven the green and the president of GMGC said he watched it as he was playing with Kuehne. He flew that ball right onto the middle of the green and it bounced into a greenside bunker from which he got up and down for birdie.

(BTW, the president of GMGC did pretty well himself that weekend---he was the runner-up in the finals of the senior club championship to Vinny Giles and he knocked out Jack Vardamann to get into the finals. Jack Vardamann is playing some pretty great golf right now and of course Vinny is always Vinny).

[Nick Pozaric]

Is it true that one of the people in charge of the raters is a member at Seminole, a lady with a distinctive name, cant remember now?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is it true that one of the people in charge of the raters is a member at Seminole, a lady with a distinctive name, cant remember now?

Topsy ?[/color]

[TEPaul]

Pat:

If you're going to tell us her name you should also tell us how she got that name in the first place!

[Nick Pozaric]

Is it true that one of the people in charge of the raters is a member at Seminole, a lady with a distinctive name, cant remember now?

Topsy ?[/color]

Thats it, thanks

[Walt Cutshall]

Is it true that one of the people in charge of the raters is a member at Seminole, a lady with a distinctive name, cant remember now?

Topsy ?[/color]

"Topsy" would be a unique name, except at any high-end country club.  

[Nick Pozaric]

Mentioned earlier in a post or two people have to play it more than once to truly appreciate the course.  Is this the case with all classic courses?  I have played several courses from around the same time period that I was blown away the first time  I played it not needing a second look.  How is Seminole different?

[Wayne Freeman]

Brad-  thankyou for your insights and comments.  Explanations like that help me understand more of what the course architect was thinking and give me new perspectives when I'm playing.

Pat-  I played the week of the Honda Classic and the wind was really blowing- maybe 20-30mph-  it was a good 2 clubs directly into us on 1 and 10.

Nick-  the reason I posted this thread was that like you, so many of the greats have blown me away on the first play-  Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Pinehurst #2, Winged Foot, Olympic Club, SFCC, Bethpage Black, Merion, Oakmont, Shinnecock, Crystal Downs, Fishers Island, Friars Head.  I thought I was missing something big at Seminole and was trying to learn more about why I didn't get those special feelings. Maidstone might be a little bit of a tweener in that several of the holes there are not that special and it is pretty short, but overall I think it too qualifies as being up there in the "wow" category.

[rgkeller]

Mentioned earlier in a post or two people have to play it more than once to truly appreciate the course.  Is this the case with all classic courses?  I have played several courses from around the same time period that I was blown away the first time  I played it not needing a second look.  How is Seminole different?

Seminole is not a particularly attractive golf course. Plays good though.

[Wayne Freeman]

redanman-    I thought as you mention that the greens were beautifully situated.  They are almost all elevated and pretty dramatic.  The false fronts make the approaches extremely difficult at times. The routing is quite nice and the front nine in particular is a terrific walk.  We played the middle tees because it was so windy. How many bunkers are there? It seemed like there might be 180-200.

[Joel_Stewart]

Topsy is not a member of Seminole.  Her husband is but I can assure you she distances herself from her job and especially the raters when it comes to Seminole.

Also, Seminole does not host or allow panelists unaccompanied.  I have heard a number of stories about Bob Ford being anti-panelist (he use to be a GD panelist) at both Seminole and Oakmont.  At Oakmont, they have allowed a few panelists on odd days and they must pay full green fee.   Seminole has 2 groups unaccompanied at 8am but the tee times must be secured well in advance by a member.

[Wayne Freeman]

Joel-  it's my understanding that there are no advance tee times at Seminole.

[Mike Hendren]

I've played seminole and the clubhouse, locker room, and setting is a little overwhelming. In my opinion I might like Holston Hills a touch more. I know the people here might think I'm crazy, but If Holston Hills was sitting on that ocean property I'm inclined to say it would be ranked Higher. I'm interested to read what other people have to say about it.


Lawrence

L2,

I absolutely love Holston Hills, but would you not agree that the three closing holes are less than stellar?

Mike

[james soper]

when the wind is blowing on 17, it lives up to its reputation as one of the great par three's in golf.

[Nick Pozaric]

Topsy is not a member of Seminole.  Her husband is but I can assure you she distances herself from her job and especially the raters when it comes to Seminole.

I apologize if  I came off that way but I didnt mean to imply she influenced the ratings, just trying to confirm something I have heard.

[Brian_Gracely]

L2,

I absolutely love Holston Hills, but would you not agree that the three closing holes are less than stellar?

Mike

I agree that #17 is somewhat weak, although it has some interesting green contours....as a shorter Par4 is would be interesting to navigate drives through the field-goal trees.  

But I thought #16 was a great match-play hole (similar to #13 at Franklin Hills), and it'll look even better once John Stiles convinces the rest of the HH membership to make it a skyline green

While #18 is not that long as a Par5, it'll give you plenty of fight.  Between the long rough left, the elevated green, and the severe green slope, I'd consider 5 a good score any day of the week.