Matt's drawing #1

[Matt_Cohn]

I said a while ago that I wanted to post some of my own drawings and designs, just to see what would happen. Now that I'm doing it, I'm really wondering what kind of feedback I'll get.

Understandably I didn't take the time to draw topo lines, map out plantings, etc. So, I guess I'll just write a short intro and let you all go at it!

The setting: Palm Springs/La Quinta. Think PGA West, kind of a combo of the Stadium and Nicklaus courses: holes are generally framed by mounds, sage bushes, mesquite trees, and a few palm trees. I tried to leave room for homes - I'm all about realism! - but the paper wasn't wide enough, which is why some of the spacing between holes is weird.

As far as the greens, I'm thinking mostly random countours, mounds and ridges - no tiers - and wherever you see a chipping area, you can assume the green rolls off a little in that direction.

All the green grass you see is fairway height. You can assume there's rough on the sides, or assume that the rough is left dormant in the winter, whichever look makes you happy.  

I know there are no forward tees. This course was totally designed from the tips, I admit to that. Obviously this course would need at least 4 sets of tees, possibly 5. By the way, 520 and 495 are both par 4's. Total yardage is 7,850 from the very tips.  

If you think a hole stinks at its current yardage, but even for the pro's would play better if it were shorter, that would be great to hear.

Ask me any more questions if you've got 'em. Let's call it Royal Indio Golf Club.    Here it is:

[Sam Sikes]

What kind of grass did you put on the greens?  Is it a new strand of bermuda that has an orange tint from overhead?

[Mike McGuire]

I like # 11  Options off tee

I dont like... a lot of  north / south holes.
.walking backwards to the next tee # 2 .. few others.

seems like a lot of water for SoCal desert

[JNC Lyon]

Throw in some short par fours and threes to give the short hitter a fighting chance.

I have to say the bunkering is a bit repulsive at first, but I think it is both original and strategic, usually a good combination. I guess people are always searching for unique features on a golf course, or at least I am!

[Kevin_Reilly]

It seems that water is in play for a short shot on a good many of the par 3s...all of them on the front, and 17 on the back....a bit repetitive.  Did I really see a 675 yd hole?  

Thanks for posting.

[Gene Greco]

#11 reminds me of #12 at Bethpage Red and #15 at World Woods, two of my very favorite holes. I love holes with multiple options as opposed to those which dictate where I MUST hit the ball.  

[Tyler Kearns]

Matt,

I think Mike's comments are spot-on. I would also add that some of the bunkering seems a little superfluous - assuming the land is relatively flat. Further, many of the tees are in very close proximity to the greens. In today's litigious times, that relationship is problematic. Some have commented that your design features a lot of water, however, given a flat site, that may be a necessary feature as a means to gather fill to build the green & tee complexes and to create some interesting fairway contours.

7,850 yds. (please put in some forward tees, I need a place to play too!)

TK

[Matt_Cohn]

Those of you who like the option holes, #11 in particular, wait until you see the course I plan to post later this week.

Meanwhile, I love the comments on this one. Thank you and keep them coming!

Matt

[Bill_McBride]

Gene, not sure I agree about #15 Pine Barrens.  As I recall that hole, it wasn't anywhere near 455 from the tips, more like 330, and that's what made it such a good one.  At 455, the strategic options are less critical than at 330.  A tee ball in the wide open left fairway at PB leaves a difficult pitch to a sharply fall away green angle, a tee ball that carries the 220 yds onto the smaller right fairway leaves a fairly simple straight pitch.  #11 at Indigo -- strategy is a lot less important than the ability to hit a long tee ball and an accurate mid or long iron.

As somebody else mentioned, Matt's course could use a couple of strategic short 4s.  As is, it makes me think of the new Robert Trent Jones Trail course in northern Alabama that is >8,000 yds!

[Gene Greco]

Spot on, Bill. Silly me didn't bother to lok at the yardage.

Maybe #11 should be the candidate for the short par 4?

[Matt_Cohn]

What about #15 as a short par-4, with the green on the right between the water and the right fairway bunker, with the green angled straight towards the tee?

PS: My next course has a couple of short par-4's, but I need to keep working on them.

[Pete Buczkowski]

As far as the greens, I'm thinking mostly random countours, mounds and ridges - no tiers - and wherever you see a chipping area, you can assume the green rolls off a little in that direction.

Matt,

I think holes like your #11 expressly need the green contours to make it work.  For instance the 15th at Pine Barrens is made because the safe route presents a half-blind pitch to a green that falls steeply away, while the daring tee shot leaves a relatively simple pitch.  For instance, how do you get at a back pin to 11?  Or back right?  If done well the contours can really enhance this hole.

Overall its an intriguing plan to look at - thanks for posting it.  For my taste there are too many greens perched next to a water hazard; and I'm usually the one who endorses the heroic shots.  With my hook 6-9 would not be a whole lot of fun.

Just one more comment...I like the 6th hole but wonder if moving the fairway bunker a little farther from the water might improve the hole.  As of right now a good player will just club down one club so it doesn't come into play, while if it was moved 20 yards back they would either have to pick a side or lay back 40-50 yards from the water.  

Best,
Pete

[Matt_Cohn]

Matt,

I think holes like your #11 expressly need the green contours to make it work.  For instance the 15th at Pine Barrens is made because the safe route presents a half-blind pitch to a green that falls steeply away...

Yay! That's how I pictured #11 - some mounding on the right that would create a semi-blind approach shot if one too far that way. Also, I pictured a slight downslope off the right greenside bunker, making a shot to the back-right pin in particular very hard from the right side.

Other green contours I'd pictured:

-the front-right part of #2 green would look like the front-left part of #3 at Augusta.
-anything next to water, generally slopes towards the water, even #16, but maybe not #17.

[Lou_Duran]

Without looking at the detail closely, 17 of the holes have a north-south orientation.  If that's what the topo allows without moving wash areas or building bridges, that's fine.  Personally, I prefer a design that incorporates all the points of the compass.  In particular, I don't like up and down holes where the wind makes them play very similar, say a 440 yard hole going with the prevailing wind, followed by a 400 yard hole going against it.  Where is your short par 3?

BTW, how much further does the ball go in Palm Springs?  Why design a 7,900 yard course in a retirement area?  Isn't PGA West enough for the "the longer, the harder, the better" segment of the market?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Matt,
First, your a brave guy to post your drawing and I commend you for giving us a look.

My .02
It is my opinion that most of the great golf courses in the world find a way to "fit" their surroundings. We can build a pine tree lined parkland course in the middle of the desert, and we can move hundred of thousands of yards of dirt to  turn a flat site into rolling terrain. But, IMO that's not near as good as a design that uses the natural features of a site and is built to be maintained in a sustainable manner with a reasonable amount of money. The last thing Palm Springs needs is another course with 20+ acres of water in an area where the evaporation rate for an acre of water is 7+ feet a year. It is my belief that even in the Coachella Valley some common sense will eventually prevail when it comes to building courses that "fit" a little better into the environment.

[Chris_Clouser]

Matt,

Give me a shout via e-mail when you get a chance.  It's funny you should mention this being inspired by Nicklaus design.  Holes 3, 4, 9, 12, 17 and 18 are almost exact duplicates of holes that were built at a Nicklaus course near my home.  I mean yardage included.  That's eerie that you could nail something like that.  I've never seen the course you are using as inspiration.  The use of the large waste areas off the tee is also similar to the design of this course.  The only thing that you are missing are the similarly angled greens with no real elevation or contouring.  

Chris

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:  There are several holes where the average senior player just has to lay up on the approach shot, either because of a water carry or a green that's shallow and has no reasonable bounce-in approach [#5 and #15].

And, generally, there is a lot of water in play, which is 10 times more difficult for the average player than for the very good player.  I mean, how often are you going to hit it in the pond on #6?  But how often is your mom going to?

The serpentine bunkers are interesting in plan and could look very cool on the ground, particularly if they're skinny and don't just look like standard 1980's waste bunkers.

[Mark_Fine]

Matt,
One thing to think about is the orientation.  I hope it's North/South otherwise your golfers will go blind with all the parallel holes, especially in Palm Springs.  
Mark

[ian]

Matt,

11 is great and I would suggest you explore more ideas like this.

Ease up on the water, its too prominant a feature. You can still have the water but remove it from immediate play. TPC at Sawgrass does this often to make up for the amount of open water needed to drain the course.

Holes like 6 are undesireable, look at other alternatives like the Cape hole to have the same idea with more options.

I must give you credit for having the guts to post this, well done.

[JSlonis]

My first impression without even looking more in depth at the design...

TOO many greens bordered by water.  I count 12 of the 18 holes as having a water hazard next to the green.  I'm not a big fan of water hazards in general, and IMO that is simply too many, especially for a desert type setting.  
 
You'd have one helluva golf ball concession though...

[JakaB]

I'm interested in why a young psychology student living in Manhattan would design such a penal course....I think the boy needs to get out and smell some fresh air...there is some kind of message in those bunker shapes but I just havn't been able to break the code.   Either that or Matt drew this up while working an internship at a psyce ward....The whole drawing looks like a Munch design...

[JakaB]

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

Kudos on the post, if you go back a few weeks I posted some of my own work on here... read some of the comments, this is indeed a tough crowd! Keep posting though, and I will too, we can get blasted together.

Some notes:

I really like your second hole, especially the placement of the two fairway bunkers in both landing areas. The green snug against the lake works well there too and forces the golfer to carry the second fairway bunker to get an easy approach to the green or challenge the water. You also make the golfer challenge the left fairway bunker off the tee in order to get a good angle into the green in two. Well done.

The amount of lakes distrubs me, and I wonder how many of them would actually appear natural based on topo... of course, you have that information.

I will further praise number 11 as well. Maybe you could angle the green so the long axis runs with the left fairway option off the tee? That way distance control is a must for someone bailing out to the right...

With the exception of 17, all the par threes run in the same direction... Also, having a difficult par three with water fronting the green as the third hole will play hell with pace of play. Especially after a reachable par five.

Also, having three par threes with water in front makes for some monotony that only works well in certain Chicago area PGA Championship/US Open venues.

I like the routing returning to the general clubhouse area a few times during the round, however, the golfer could never feel like he is truly away and off on the course. That's less objective a criticism I realize, but I'd look to your base map and see if there are any areas of particular interest you can have the routing linger around before going back home.

Sorry if that sounded overly critical. I am with you on this one though, having bared some of my soul to this board myself.

Keep it up, this is a lot of fun.

[George Pazin]

I'm interested in why a young psychology student living in Manhattan would design such a penal course....I think the boy needs to get out and smell some fresh air...there is some kind of message in those bunker shapes but I just havn't been able to break the code.   Either that or Matt drew this up while working an internship at a psyce ward....The whole drawing looks like a Munch design...

Maybe it's not all that penal for Matt - my recollection is he's a helluva golfer.

For an excellent read by Matt:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/opinioncohn1.html

At least you're getting comments. I posted my entry to the GD contest a few years ago and elicited a great big yawn from the collective soul of the group.

[Kyle Harris]

George,

Amen to you about the yawn... I posted some stuff every morning and was expecting more, but oh well. Bring the thread back up, I'll take a look.