[gookin]

At Fox Chapel Golf Club we are finishing up a standards document. Much of the document is focused on maintenance standards.  However, we have added a section in our document to describe the responsibilities of a committee member. So far a lot of our items revolve around education and member communication. I would be interested in the opinion of GCA to help us desribe the responsibilities of a member of the Green Committee.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

One must have the best interests of the golf course at heart, with no collateral agendas, a passion for the golf course and the willingness to devote the necessary time.

The rest is just detail.

[mitchell cooper]

A willingness to devote time is important but a green committee should represent diversity of thought.  All factions of the club.  Just as any great club should have a diversity in membership, the committee should represent this diversity.

[ForkaB]

Pat

Good list, but I'm trying to distinguish between "best interests" and "'agendas."  Surely all  members have their own idiosyncratic ideas as to what is in the "best interests" of the club?  Even those who are pure as the driven snow (in GCA terms) have an "agenda" ("collateral" or otherwise).

Who decides what are these "best interests" anyway (absent a benevolent dictator, of course)?  At all the clubs of which I've ever been a member, good and thoughtful people can differ (often radically) as to what these are and/or should be.

PS--please don't use the words "Master Plan" in your reply.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

A willingness to devote time is important but a green committee should represent diversity of thought.  All factions of the club.  Just as any great club should have a diversity in membership, the committee should represent this diversity.

That's absurd.

The notion that a green committee should represent the diversity in the membership is why so many great and classical courses have been disfigured over the years.

It's probably the worst method for structuring a green committee.   A committee should be structured by choosing the most qualified candidates, and not a cross section of the membership for political correctness's sake.

Mitchell, how many green committees have you served on ?

But, to the REAL heart of your post, why should Century golf club be forced to have a diverse membership ?

I think they have had and continue to have a terrific membership.  

Why do you want to force them to change their admission's policies ?[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Who decides what are these "best interests" anyway (absent a benevolent dictator, of course)?

I think one has to start by subjugating their personal interests to the interests of the golf course.

Yesterday, I remarked, at the end of a green committee meeting that I thought that this particular committee was one of the best structured green committees I had ever seen.

That all of the members wanted what was in the best interest of the golf course, and not in their personal interest.

Goals were identified, analyzed, discussed and agreed to.
Imput was universal, but, all seemed to be on the same page, with a desire to do what was right for the golf course.
The Committee, Chairman and President were in perfect harmony, and I couldn't point to one incident were someone pushed their personal agenda.[/color]
 
At all the clubs of which I've ever been a member, good and thoughtful people can differ (often radically) as to what these are and/or should be.

Yes, that can happen.  But, if discussion is allowed, prudent thought usually prevails.

I think the key to a good committee and good work is the quality of its members.[/color]

PS--please don't use the words "Master Plan" in your reply.....

OK[/color]

[cary lichtenstein]

I have been on several green committees and will never serve on one again. For the most part, they are a joke.

The committee standards should be as follows:

"If you agree to serve on the greens committee, show up, shut up and vote in favor of whatever is proposed"

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cary,

I have been on several green committees and will never serve on one again. For the most part, they are a joke.

The committee standards should be as follows:

"If you agree to serve on the greens committee, show up, shut up and vote in favor of whatever is proposed"

That's exactly how all of those disfigurations occured.

Remember,
"all that's needed for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing"[/color]

[TEPaul]

"One must have the best interests of the golf course at heart,"

Pat:

That sounds great and on a board like this if it was a golf club it probably would work well, and personally I know precisely what you mean and you and I know we're on the same page about it.

But if you used advice or a criteria for populating a green committee that simply said we expect you to have the best interests of the golf course at heart who in the wholly hell knows how that would turn out. Your idea of what the best interests of the golf course means and someone else's idea of what that means at any club could be as different as night from day. If one wants a good and effective green committee they have to be a whole lot more aware of things than just having the best interests of the golf course at heart. What that is has to be explained to them in detail---and then you have to get them to understand it all and agree to it. Nothing works as simple as that phrase makes it sound.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

If you have to educate them the day before you appoint them, you've made the wrong choice.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
If you have to educate them the day before you appoint them, you've made the wrong choice."

Pat:

I agree, but why didn't you just you tell us in the first place what you think those "best interests" are they should have at heart about the course?  

Do you have the best interests of the course at heart sir?

"I most certainly do!"

Well, what are those best interests about the course you have at heart?

"I think we should have flower beds around every tee and make this course look really pretty with lots of pretty trees and deep green grass."

You call that 'having the best interests of the course at heart'?

"I sure do, the course will be so pretty, everyone at the club will be so proud of it!"

What about enhancing shot values, options, strategies, firm and fast etc?

"What do those things mean, they don't sound like they belong on a pretty golf course?"

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I'm not going to type a 40 page treatise on the duties or qualifications of a perspective green committee member.

Simply put, like obscenity, you'll know them when you see them.  They become self evident.

Once their heart is their, their minds will follow.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Oh, I see, so you say to the membership;

"I just want about five really obscene men and maybe one truly obscene woman and our hearts and minds will therefore be in the best interests of the golf course! How long do you think it will take that dedicated committee to get that golf course looking like a great whore house---maybe a year?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Why would you say anything to the membership ?

Your job is to select the most qualified people to be members of the green committee.  

Anything short of that is dereliction of duty.

[TEPaul]

OK, so you just hand pick about five of the most obscene men and maybe one truly obscene woman. How long would it take that group to turn the course into a great looking whore house--maybe a year?

[cary lichtenstein]

Pat:

I was being sarcastic, that is how the chairman ran our greens committee, and anyone who spoke up with an opposing viewpoint was asked to resign.

Cary

[Top100Guru]

Do you guys think that when Habitat For Humanity gets together and builds houses for needing people, that they organize the volunteers in a similar fashion to the way that most "Greens Committees" are formed and organized?

Some do, some don't, and the ones that organize according to the "volunteers particular strenghts" build very good houses, the ones that put the guys that like to hammer and tear down things in with the painters and anal retentive folks usually end up with houses that look like the coloring book, colored by a 4 year old w/ terrets syndrome!

The best green's committee's I have seen usually have a very strong leader that understands the mission at hand and this person surrounds himself with knowledgeable people that are there to "do good" not with folks thatjust have their own personl agenda or agendas!!!!!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Six weeks, max.

Cary,

I missed the smiley.

Dave Gookin,

It's difficult to pinpoint the criteria, line item by line item.
If their hearts are in the right place and they are reasonably intelligent, they'll get up to speed in a short time.

Good Green committee members usually attract other qualified prospects, and a good Chairman should be seeking, guiding and grooming his successor.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

A commitment to learn!  

This requires the ability to listen, read and listen again!

[rgkeller]

The most important responsibility of a Green Committee member is to learn what a properly conditioned golf course looks and plays like.

Without this ability, the member is useless.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

David,
I have said this from the very day you started posting here.

You get all of the names and addresses; pertinent data like places of work and other personal details of each and every green committee member.

You then investigate some of the data to find dark closets and other things that would be most embarassing/damaging to them.

Then you get two of the biggest guido's you can find and explain it to them how you want the course to play EXACTLY how you have interpreted that Seth Raynor wanted it to play. Knee caps and arms are the part of this discussion. So are mistresses and even stranger bedfellows.

Before you know it, your both respected and feared with-in your club, and you get your way each and everytime. It also helps when your playing this same members in match play. You'll never lose.

This is the way things get done.

[Mark Studer]

At Fox Chapel Golf Club we are finishing up a standards document. Much of the document is focused on maintenance standards.  However, we have added a section in our document to describe the responsibilities of a committee member. So far a lot of our items revolve around education and member communication. I would be interested in the opinion of GCA to help us desribe the responsibilities of a member of the Green Committee.

[Mark Studer]

I hope David Gookin and the previous green chairs are enjoying the 2nd year of play by the Champion Tour guys on their Raynor beauty.  There were years of healthy debate both during and following the tree management ,expansion of green pads , and heavy topdressing of approach areas. Some bunker faces are still steeper than other Raynors but overall the masterpiece is showing and playing beautifully.  Too bad that they are not playing the firm course presented just a week ago before this week's rainstorms.  Many thanks to all who helped  polish up an architectural classic.  -Mark

[Ricardo Ramirez Calvo]

Having served and still serving in several green committees, my best advice would be to have odd number of members of the Committee and 3 is way too much. 

[Thomas Dai]

Having served and still serving in several green committees, my best advice would be to have odd number of members of the Committee and 3 is way too much. 

Well said. To many fingers in a pie equals bad news.

The role of any club member/representative on any golf club committee, not just greens, or supervising board at a club should be to hire good staff and then back-off and let them get on with it.

All the best.

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