How did they do it?

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
From what I understand they (USGA GS magazine) were planning on publishing Taylor's massive essay prior to his death. In fact he was finishing it while he was ill....he died of pneumonia.

[Jeff_Brauer]

As to how many site visits these guys made, I think both Doak and Brad Klein have realized how few it was after researching the papers of Mac and Ross, respectively.  Of course, each had good associates.

I find it a bit odd that many here would credit plaster models and good plans as a substitute for full time field supervision, when you give modern guys flak for computer drawings and any associate taking over some of the work.  I suspect Ross sucess is in having his large crew of construction people (whether employed directly by him or not) responsible for most of his best courses.

For the busiest architects today, the model is about the same. Nicklaus and Fazio, have a long time associate on the project close to full time, much like Ross would.  Even Dye does that, although he makes the Owner hire them, to avoid the business complications of a payroll, etc.

Another factor I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that perhaps, some of the greatness of those courses was added by time itself (maturing trees), and minor design tweaks by uncredited supers, etc.) Modern guys haven't had that luxury quite yet!  For that matter, we haven't had the luxury of people pining for our "long lost style" yet.  It will happen, just as it will happen even for courses designed in the supposed dark ages of the 50-60's.

As I have said before, I have seen Ross plans and sketches.  I don't know as much about Flynn.  However, plans today are much more detailed (with greens planned out to the 0.1 foot) than they ever did.  And notes on Ross plans focused on where they would come up with dirt, approximate bunker depths, etc.

Could we conclude that except for a few rare cases, like Pinehurst, that those guys approached often their BUSINESS with a "just good enough" mentality, since the money was good for spending whether every course was a classic or not?

Just a thought......

[Mark_Fine]

I have to run but one question to the group - When did Toomey start with Flynn?  Ron Prichard in his master plan for H. Valley states that Cherry Hills and The Cascades were done by Flynn alone.   If Toomey started in 1923 (most of the construction for Flynn's courses that opened in 1923 was done in 1922.

Thoughts?
Mark

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

I'm not so sure that Frederick Taylor actually directly influenced the Wilsons or Flynns green construction methods. The result he was getting, particularly at Sunnybrook sure got Wilson and Flynn's attention, though, and we do have that in Wilson's letters.

One of the draw-backs to Taylor's green construction method was probably that it was pretty elaborate compared to the way others of that day were doing things and it was recognized to be more expensive.

What did you say----Who did Crump communicate his plan to redo his greens to Taylor's construction method. Well, I guess he probably communicated it to everyone who was at PVGC working there including Govan, probably the Wilsons, maybe Flynn and perhaps his friends Smith and Carr. He'd already done the greens on #6-10 and #18. Why? Because the grass wasn't doing well and he obviously felt Taylor's method would improve that! Or is that rather simple logic too little documentation for you?   I'll see if I can find some old article in the "Clementon Picayune" to prove it to you!  

[wsmorrison]

Tom MacWood,

That's right, we have the letters between Wilson and Piper/Oakley.  Oakley asked Wilson to assist in obtaining the Taylor records for publication.

[T_MacWood]

"Well, I guess he probably communicated it to everyone who was at PVGC working there including Govan, probably the Wilsons, maybe Flynn and perhaps his friends Smith and Carr. He'd already done the greens on #6-10 and #18. Why?"

TE
When dealing with stories surrounding Pine Vally i'm alwasy keen to find out what is fact and what is legend. I think the key words in your statement above are 'probably', 'maybe' and 'perhaps'.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom Paul,
I don't just believe "experts", in fact I question them often.  And I also respect the opinions of you, Wayne and many others.  In this case, however, I just feel a few of your points were a bit biased or skewed.  

Jeff seems to be saying some of the same things I raised doesn't he?  

I'd still like to hear your thoughts about Toomey and when he joined with Flynn.  Is Ron Prichard's comment correct?  

I'm still amazed how Flynn could design and build a course like Cherry Hills.  We do believe that the construction crew that built the golf course had recently finished up a course for Tillinghast.  That could be part of why it turned out so good as well.  

Mark

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

The earliest record we have for Toomey working with Flynn, at least informally is 1921.  In any case, their formal relationship began a few years before Wilson died, maybe 1922.

[Mark_Fine]

So it is incorrect to state that Cherry Hills and The Cascades were done without the help of Toomey.  I was never sure about this and didn't know if Prichard was correct or not.  I guess he was wrong.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

It's possible that Toomey gets no credit for the courses in Denver, even if he WAS working with Flynn by then, because he didn't go to Denver and didn't participate in those courses at all.

I agree with Jeff B. that everyone overrates the use of plasticine models ... they're no better than computer plans, just a different way of depicting something in 3-D.  Neither one properly takes account of the background or the surrounding contours, however, which is why I think BOTH are overrated.

I wouldn't agree that Tom Fazio's on-site guys or Jack Nicklaus' on-site guys are the equivalent of Red Lawrence of Bill Gordon [or Mick Morcom or Brian Slawnik].  In the big firms today it's a third-tier associate who is on-site close to full time -- the senior associate only spends about the same amount of time that the principals do in most other firms.

[TEPaul]

"TE
When dealing with stories surrounding Pine Vally i'm alwasy keen to find out what is fact and what is legend. I think the key words in your statement above are 'probably', 'maybe' and 'perhaps'."

Tom MacWood:

At this point, believe me, I think I know what you're keen to find out regarding what's fact and what's legend at PV!!   And personally, at this point, I'm not real interested in what you're keen about regarding PVGC,  and I can't really imagine who would be!

Speaking of fact vs legend regarding PV, how's your story coming on the Great Crump Suicide Coverup & Conspiracy involving the entire membership of PV, all Crump's friends and most of the rest of South Jersey and Greater Philadelphia?    

[TEPaul]

TomD:

When it comes to Toomey and Flynn's good associates don't forget about Dick Wilson who worked for them for so long. DW had some real talent and imagination in how to do things his own way when no one was looking perhaps by some of the best applied "flask architecture" ever known, forcing the company to go back and fix it. And that fact is about as well documented as it possibly could be today!  

[wsmorrison]

We can only estimate when Toomey went into an actual partnership with Flynn in their construction firm.  Hugh Wilson wrote about a possible partnership between Flynn, Toomey and Charles Alison in November 1921 (Flynn would not agree to a partnership).  

In any case, all designs were by Flynn.  Toomey, Gordon, Lawrence and Wilson did not do any design work while with Flynn.  Did Lawrence, Gordon and Wilson have design input?  Probably to some extent, but who knows.  According to documents we have compiled, Flynn was the only designer in the firm.

Toomey dabbled in developing a machine to plant bent grass stolons and tried to corner the market on bent grass for golf turf, but in his arrangement with Flynn he only handled engineering and business matters.

Gordon and Lawrence were construction foremen for Flynn and Dick Wilson worked under one of those two men.

This must have been quite a talented group. Toomey died in 1933 at age 54 (same age as Flynn when he died in 1945).  Gordon, Lawrence and Wilson went on to varying degrees of success in golf architecture.  I guess Wilson achieved the most success.

[T_MacWood]

TE
Its coming along fine, thanks for asking...you'll pleased to know, that you and your friends in Merchantville will be taking top billing, Exhibit A and B if you will.

[Doug Wright]

Wayne et al

Flynn only drew up plans for Denver CC. The membership elected not to implement them   My information only shows one hole where Flynn is credited as the "routing architect." So I don't think he spent much time there, just enough to put the plans together.

[wsmorrison]

Doug,

That's what I said in my reply #5.  Those are some of the most interesting plans in the entire collection.  Man, that would have been some golf course if fully implemented.  A high desert with sandy waste areas--cool stuff.

I think I sent you a copy of the plans a long time ago.  If you would please let me know what of the plans you think was implemented, I sure would appreciate it.

Most of Flynn's time in Denver was probably spent at Cherry Hills where the plans were fully implemented if not fully retained over the years.  Doug, do you think Flynn was out there doing CHCC and the folks at DCC (many of whom were members at the newly formed Flynn design) asked him to do some design work?  Any information that you've come across would be a big help.

Thanks,
Wayne